M11 extension back on the agenda

[M56phil]

I'm actually surprised that this has just suddenly appeared to be honest.

Surely an upgrade of the A1 to A1(M) would make more sense first??

Even if it was built I can not see if an 'M11' extension would actually really be a 'motorway' in name. I reckon it would be an expressway is more likely - with possibly assuming a number like A15 or A16.

Regardless, even it was agreed to be built - it would be fought tooth and nail by nimbys and environmentalists.

I think a wholesale D3(M) upgrade of the A1 and Improvements to the A15 and A46 could be better alternative. Then again, I could be wrong.

[danfw194]

I think a wholesale D3(M) upgrade of the A1 and Improvements to the A15 and A46 could be better alternative. Then again, I could be wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Upgrading the A1 is not just essential for capacity purposes, its a safety issue. A fully D3M A1 from London to Newcastle will relieve pressure on the M1 and the M11 to some extent. And it would be a suitable option for freight traffic to take A1(M), M18, M180 between London and Immingham/Grimsby.

Lincolnshire is crying out for road improvements, but instead of pumping millions into a single motorway scheme, it should be spread across all the primary roads in the county - most of which are of dreadfully poor quality. I'm 28, but whenever I drive in Lincolnshire it feels like a timewarp, going back to what it would be like to drive in the 1950's.

[c2R]

Thanks for the links to the motorway archive page - I must have missed those somehow before.

I agree that there are plenty of other places to start rather than a completely new alignment. That said, I do think that the following key routes are crying out for upgrades:
* A17 from Newark to Kings Lynn
* Remaining single carriageway A47 sections from the A1 to Lowestoft
* A15/A16 from Boston to Peterborough
* A46 at Newark
* A15/A1079 from Lincoln to York
* Remaining at grade junctions on the A1 between Peterborough and Blyth

[roadtester]

I'm 28, but whenever I drive in Lincolnshire it feels like a timewarp, going back to what it would be like to drive in the 1950's.

That's one of the best things about it - it is quite unlike any other part of the country.

I love driving in Lincolnshire precisely because it is possible to have a bit of a "golden age of motoring experience" with lightly trafficked roads - especially if you stick to the many very good B roads.

I don't think there would necessarily be a lot of Nimbyism if the M11 were extended through Lincolnshire - development in the East of England seems to meet with a lot less resistance than most other parts of the country.

But it has to be said, deciding to build an M11 extension to the Humber isn't just a road project - it's a decision to change the unique character of Lincolnshire fundamentally for ever.

Any new road of this type would completely open up one of the cheapest, previously inaccessible and sparsely populated areas of England - the pressure for residential development along the route would be enormous. Who wouldn't want a nice new big detached house in now easily reachable decent countryside for the price of a shoebox somewhere else? A new M11 corridor could soak up literally millions in the way of new population.

[c2R]

But it has to be said, deciding to build an M11 extension to the Humber isn't just a road project - it's a decision to change the unique character of Lincolnshire fundamentally for ever.

Any new road of this type would completely open up one of the cheapest, previously inaccessible and sparsely populated areas of England - the pressure for residential development along the route would be enormous. Who wouldn't want a nice new big detached house in now easily reachable decent countryside for the price of a shoebox somewhere else? A new M11 corridor could soak up literally millions in the way of new population.

I agree - and it would also change the economy of towns like King Lynn, wisbech, sleaford and boston unrecognisably.

[Micro The Maniac]

Folkestone harbour comes to mind along with Poole Harbour with some dredging could accomodate larger vessels. It has declined since the 1950's but has recently started expanding again.

Poole Harbour is now an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, a Special Area of Conservation, RAMSAR designated and a Site of Special Scientific Importance, whilst the entrance and much of the land around it is also a National Nature Reserve.

There is ZERO chance of any (significant) development happening in Poole harbour!

[trickstat]

Any new road of this type would completely open up one of the cheapest, previously inaccessible and sparsely populated areas of England - the pressure for residential development along the route would be enormous. Who wouldn't want a nice new big detached house in now easily reachable decent countryside for the price of a shoebox somewhere else? A new M11 corridor could soak up literally millions in the way of new population.

It is not uncommon for people from my area to retire to Lincolnshire. I assume this is because it is the nearest, fairly rural area where property prices are a lot cheaper. You can sell your house, buy a nice bungalow and still have some money left over and it is not too far for your children and grandchildren to visit on a Sunday.

[Mark Hewitt]

Fully upgrading the A1 to Motorway standard should take precedence over anything like this.

Of course it should. The whole of the A1(M) should be at least D3M standard like the new sections in North Yorkshire. Some offline bypasses might make sense where there's a difficulty in getting a D3M through; yet if they can manage to turn a D2 to D3M around Catterick and Wetherby then I think it's manageable.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Folkestone harbour comes to mind along with Poole Harbour with some dredging could accomodate larger vessels. It has declined since the 1950's but has recently started expanding again.

Poole Harbour is now an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, a Special Area of Conservation, RAMSAR designated and a Site of Special Scientific Importance, whilst the entrance and much of the land around it is also a National Nature Reserve.

There is ZERO chance of any (significant) development happening in Poole harbour!

Another factor which would hinder the development of Poole Harbour as a freight terminal is the poor road network around Poole. The A350 to the north is obviously a no-no for heavy container lorries (Melbury Abbas), the A338/A36 takes you through Salisbury and the A35/A37/A3088/A303/A358 is a far from perfect route to the M5. It leaves only the A3049/A348/A31/M27/M3/A34 as a realistic and practical route out of Poole.

[KeithW]

Any new road of this type would completely open up one of the cheapest, previously inaccessible and sparsely populated areas of England - the pressure for residential development along the route would be enormous. Who wouldn't want a nice new big detached house in now easily reachable decent countryside for the price of a shoebox somewhere else? A new M11 corridor could soak up literally millions in the way of new population.

It also doesn't have many employment opportunities. Those millions have to work somewhere and while a writer or a software engineer can work anywhere that does not apply to most people. There are areas of the country with good road connections that also have low house prices. Lincolnshire like parts of the NE of England has a population that is slewed towards the elderly as young people have to move somewhere else to work. Its stretching a point to suggest that Lincolnshire is inaccessible when you can drive to anywhere in the county from London in under 4 hours.

The Oxford Cambridge Expressway corridor is slated for housing development because it is where the job opportunities are. I didn't move to London or South Cambridgeshire in search of cheap housing, quite the reverse I had to sell a 3 bedroom semi for £25,000 to buy a 3 bed terrace house for £90,000. I moved to find work.

[roadtester]

Any new road of this type would completely open up one of the cheapest, previously inaccessible and sparsely populated areas of England - the pressure for residential development along the route would be enormous. Who wouldn't want a nice new big detached house in now easily reachable decent countryside for the price of a shoebox somewhere else? A new M11 corridor could soak up literally millions in the way of new population.

It also doesn't have many employment opportunities. Those millions have to work somewhere and while a writer or a software engineer can work anywhere that does not apply to most people. There are areas of the country with good road connections that also have low house prices. Lincolnshire like parts of the NE of England has a population that is slewed towards the elderly as young people have to move somewhere else to work. Its stretching a point to suggest that Lincolnshire is inaccessible when you can drive to anywhere in the county from London in under 4 hours.

The Oxford Cambridge Expressway corridor is slated for housing development because it is where the job opportunities are. I didn't move to London or South Cambridgeshire in search of cheap housing, quite the reverse I had to sell a 3 bedroom semi for £25,000 to buy a 3 bed terrace house for £90,000. I moved to find work.

I think that's far too static a view. An M11 that opened up Lincolnshire with great links to the ports and all the main population centres would attract a lot of investment. Pretty much every junction would probably get a decent-sized logistics park, and that's just for starters.

[c2R]

Folkestone harbour comes to mind

Not a chance! This is what's in store for Folkestone Harbour: https://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone ... ow-190454/

[KeithW]

Poole Harbour is now an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, a Special Area of Conservation, RAMSAR designated and a Site of Special Scientific Importance, whilst the entrance and much of the land around it is also a National Nature Reserve.

There is ZERO chance of any (significant) development happening in Poole harbour!

And yet development is being proposed

The preferred options are:
1. Redeveloping the existing Port of Poole Marina
site, resulting in the creation of a new south
facing multipurpose 9 metre quay, which could be
used by a variety of vessels such as cruise ships,
small container feeder vessels and bulk cargo
vessels. The redevelopment will also include the
infilling of part or all of this area, depending on
further discussions with new port customers
including Eneco;

2. The deepening of existing conventional Quays to
7.5 metres, including Ballast Quay, Bulwark
Quay, New Quay North, New Quay South and
the existing Oil Jetty (depending on the phased
redevelopment of the existing Port of Poole
Marina);

3. The creation of a Poole Harbour Marine Centre
extending from the existing Poole Quay Boat
Haven which would provide a number of facilities
including:
• an extended marina providing secure
berths for power and sail boats
• facilities for major marine events including
tall ships festivals and super yacht events
• new Harbour walkways for members of the
public
• a Poole Harbour Visitor Attraction Centre
providing a Poole Harbour Awareness
Programme
• Harbour Access to local organisations
including charities, RNLI and commercial
organisations such as Sunseeker

Other facilities that would not be appropriately located
within the Marine Centre, such as lift-out facilities for
leisure and commercial vessels and the potential
development of a marine business park would be located
on the main Port Estate, not within the Marine Centre.

See also
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/ ... _moore.pdf

Now as others have said there is a problem with the inadequate road network but that I suspect is not the biggest hurdle. Its also worth recalling that the context of my post is a purported national crisis where new ports are desperately needed. Personally I think it highly unlikely but if it did circumstances alter cases.

I would have to say from my visits that Poole Harbour is heavily developed compared with areas of outstanding natural beauty such as Druridge Bay, Morecambe Bay or Argyll and Sutherland. The old harbour facilities have not been demolished they have become home to floating gin palaces and it is nimbyism that would thwart any development. Lets not kid ourselves that Poole Harbour is some sort of unspoiled demi paradise. It is in fact a playground for the rich. Just look at Google Satellite view or see the pricing of houses in Sandbanks as an example.

[KeithW]

Folkestone harbour comes to mind

Not a chance! This is what's in store for Folkestone Harbour: https://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone ... ow-190454/

I have seen similar plans published since the 1990's but the reality is that they all failed as the money could not be found. The sad fact is that Folkestone Harbour and Seafront is run down and shabby, a pale imitation of the prosperous area it once was. Just take a look at Google Street view

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.07754 ... 6656?hl=en

This is the height of the summer season. The amusement park has been demolished for 2 decades, the planned developments never happened, half the hotels have gone with most of the survivors being converted to flats, the car park is empty, the port is unused and decaying while the once upmarket Grand Burstin Hotel is an unloved underused budget hotel. The going rate is £29 per night while the Premier Inn near the tunnel terminal costs £95. The Leas Cliff Lift has been closed for at least 10 years. The fishing fleet is now down to 10 boats and half of the old fish dealers and shops are shuttered.

When the ferry port was open the place was all hustle bustle - no more the action is now all at the channel tunnel terminal. I loved what Folkestone was in the 1980s I hate what it has become, just another SE commuter town that has turned its back on the harbour and seafront.

[roadtester]

...while the once upmarket Grand Burstin Hotel is an unloved underused budget hotel.

I stayed there last year when I had an early ferry to catch.

I was turning up at midnight and departing at six. I read the reviews and thought "how bad can it really be as a place to crash?"

Never again!

[KeithW]

I stayed there last year when I had an early ferry to catch.

I was turning up at midnight and departing at six. I read the reviews and thought "how bad can it really be as a place to crash?"

Never again!

Yes my brother made the same mistake a few years ago having stayed there in the 1980's. He didnt even stay the night but refused the room and drove out to Cheriton and booked into the Premier Inn. His comment was that on walking into the room it was clear from the smell that there was a major rodent infestation amply confirmed by mouse droppings on the bed. I had to chuckle at one Tripadvisor review

Awful! 4 nights stay and for 3 of them the key card didn't work! An inconvenience when you're on the 4th floor! Don't eat bacon at breakfast....just suck a bag of salt! Wi-fi in the room is a failure....it just doesn't work.

You get what you pay for.....but I think they owe me!

As to the Harbour area I see the real agenda of the land owner Roger De Haan has resurfaced. Having had his development plans agreed in principle he has resubmitted them with a substantial increase in residential development. His new plans involve over a 1000 new homes, mostly multi story apartments in the harbour and sea front area. Rather ironic given that he opposed plans for a smaller development of this type in 2003. Since this gentleman bought the Harbour area for song in 2004 he has been trying to get the go ahead to make the harbour into a marina and up market housing development. Given that he has so far failed to attract investors it will be interesting to see what happens this time. For all the puffery the amount spent so far is minimal mainly consisting making safe the decaying harbour railway station and pier.

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-new ... ned-529857

[gepree68]

If an M11 extension was built, where on the existing M11 would it connect?

At the moment, the northbound end of M11 turns into A14 (soon to be A14(M)).

But where would the proposed M11 extension connect to M11? Or would it connect somewhere along A14(M)?

[KeithW]

If an M11 extension was built, where on the existing M11 would it connect?

At the moment, the northbound end of M11 turns into A14 (soon to be A14(M)).

But where would the proposed M11 extension connect to M11? Or would it connect somewhere along A14(M)?

The short answer is that it wouldn't be an M11 extension. That might have made sense 30 years ago before the A14 in current form was built and traffic levels on the M11 were modest but that is no longer the case. The maps show the projected route peeling off south of Cambridge and passing to the east which again might have made sense but with the developments today I suspect that if you wanted to do such a thing the minimum requirement would be to upgrade the M11 to D3(M) or D4(M) at least as far as J9 , upgrade the A11 to D3 or D3M as far as the A14 and then select one of several possible route options such as

1) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17 to Sleaford Newark And the A1
2) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17/A15 to Lincoln and the Humber Bridge
3) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17/A16 to Grimsby/Immingham and the Humber Bridge

The number M10 is available and IMHO more suitable. Failing that use M19 and extend it to the Tees and Tyne

[lefthandedspanner]

Lets not forget that in the new post-Brexit world, we're going to have to get stuff in via a lot more ports. The stuff from outside the EU that currently comes into Rotterdam, taken off and shipped to the UK via Calais-Dover and the M20 might well need to come into container ports on the East Coast of England - and I'd imagine Immingham has capacity spare. Plus all the other cross-channel traffic will need to be spread a bit more widely around the UK's various RoRo ports if the added red-tape at Calais slows down key imports.

My (admittedly cynical) prediction is that the government will persistently refuse to fund development for ports due to chronic tight-fistedness, allow the problem to fester and shortages to get steadily worse for years to come, then when it becomes a real emergency they'll realise they can use it as a cue to seize absolute power and will do so immediately.

[Berk]

If an M11 extension was built, where on the existing M11 would it connect?

At the moment, the northbound end of M11 turns into A14 (soon to be A14(M)).

But where would the proposed M11 extension connect to M11? Or would it connect somewhere along A14(M)?

The short answer is that it wouldn't be an M11 extension. That might have made sense 30 years ago before the A14 in current form was built and traffic levels on the M11 were modest but that is no longer the case. The maps show the projected route peeling off south of Cambridge and passing to the east which again might have made sense but with the developments today I suspect that if you wanted to do such a thing the minimum requirement would be to upgrade the M11 to D3(M) or D4(M) at least as far as J9 , upgrade the A11 to D3 or D3M as far as the A14 and then select one of several possible route options such as

1) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17 to Sleaford Newark And the A1
2) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17/A15 to Lincoln and the Humber Bridge
3) build an offline bypass of the A10 to Kings Lynn and then upgrade the A17/A16 to Grimsby/Immingham and the Humber Bridge

The number M10 is available and IMHO more suitable. Failing that use M19 and extend it to the Tees and Tyne

I would go for options 1, and 2 myself. But if push came to shove, I’d settle for option 2.

There’s no doubt that an expressway-type road will unlock a vast amount of untapped potential in these towns. And it may solve the frequent complaint of “there’s nothing here” - be it houses, schools, shops, doctors, banks. All of which would be more viable with a larger population.

Could potentially take some stress off parts of the A1 and M25 too - taking traffic away from areas north and east of South Mimms. Perhaps best not to develop this scheme until the Lower Thames Crossing has passed examination and is “in the bag”.