Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

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themadhatter
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by themadhatter »

A revised plan with three proper junctions and minimising damage to the scenery and compulsory purchases. The junction with the A923 and B954 at Muirhead would have to be the most imaginative.
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Was92now625
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Was92now625 »

cb a1 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:53
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:12What we have to remember is that isn't most of Kingsway a 1920s build?
Much of the route is 1920's and cited somewhere as being Britain's first ring road [came across that somewhere on the Dundee University website once]. I think the two GSJs came along much later though.
From memory, late 70s I think. They were ground-level roundabouts/circles before. Up until that time, it was single-carriageway west of that point.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Nwallace »

Was92now625 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 19:55
cb a1 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:53
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:12What we have to remember is that isn't most of Kingsway a 1920s build?
Much of the route is 1920's and cited somewhere as being Britain's first ring road [came across that somewhere on the Dundee University website once]. I think the two GSJs came along much later though.
From memory, late 70s I think. They were ground-level roundabouts/circles before. Up until that time, it was single-carriageway west of that point.
Bullionfield/Swallow to Camperdown junction was mid-1980s judging by my Geographia "Travellers Britain" dated 1984/85
Unfortuantely my Landrangers and 1 inch maps are all in a box under stuff and it's a bit much effort to dig out.

One map I do have is the 1:25k sheets that were published either side of the inner ring road opening!
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by B9127 »

Re Kingsway Macalpine Road to Invergowrie was single carriageway in the 60's as was Pitkerro Road to Scott Fyfe CIRCLE (no roundabouts) cannot recall the timing of the dualling but will search my OS maps and see what I can dig out - there is the story many years ago about the old man from north of Dundee who went wrong way round the Coupar Angus circle and when caught pleaded 'they didnae hae things like that in Angus'
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by B9127 »

After viewing GE for 1945 the section of the Kingsway from Strathmartine Road to Macalpine Road shows as being dualled but the remainder to Invergowrie is Single Carraigeway with a staggered junction at Coupar Angus road with Coupar Angus road looking like it is the priority. Kingsway East past Pitkerro Road is also showing as single carraigeway
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Nwallace
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Nwallace »

It's easy to identify which parts of the Kingsway were dualled when new, and which wern't.
The Central Reserves of the bits build as dual carriageway were for the tramways to run but that never happened, and later ended up with Power Lines running up them.

There is some cracking pictures of trams crossing the kingsway at the Strathmartine Road circle, and as it typical I can't find it!

Looking at the NLS mapping (after spotting something interesting on SABRE Maps)
1961 7th Series: Kingsway runs from Bullionfield with what appears to be an at grade junction at Camperdown, to the McAlpine road Circle.
Greedykes was not the A92 route at the time so is only a yellow and so is not shown as dualed, but the 10inch map of a similar time shows it as dualed
What the 10inch map also shows is:
No circle at Forfar Road; no Circle at Old Glaims Road, former tram route through the Strathmartine circle, McAlpine Road (actually Kings Cross) circle was very oval!

And what I spotted on SABRE Maps link to NLS:
The 1947 Forfar sheet shows the Kingsway from Bullionfield to Kings Cross: https://maps.nls.uk/view/91527143
The 1927 Dundee and St Andrews Sheet, does not: https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400681

Flipping between the two you can see how Dundee developed following Mr Thompon's death including the development of Craigiebarns.

I had initially thought it had caught the flip between developments, similar to my two copies of the glen coe sheets from the 1920s one with the telford road and one with the new road, because I forgot that the 1940s maps are recorded as published in the 1920s.

The best pre-Kingsway map i've found is the 1912 Bartholomews. THe 1923 MOT map and the 1921 Quarter Inch are also both pre-kingsway

In the 1940s air mosaics you can see the single carriagewaway but also note that there appears to be land reserved for dualing
https://maps.nls.uk/view/75220125

You can also see the east end developments in this picture
https://maps.nls.uk/view/75220804

And some of Thompsons maps are there too
https://maps.nls.uk/view/109707710
https://maps.nls.uk/view/109707713
https://maps.nls.uk/view/109707716
https://maps.nls.uk/view/109707719
cb a1
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by cb a1 »

There is some cracking pictures of trams crossing the kingsway at the Strathmartine Road circle, and as it typical I can't find it!
Dundee_Kingsway.jpg
Photo taken approximately from here.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Nwallace »

thanks :)
MrEnder666
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by MrEnder666 »

Dundee (outer) bypass:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aPHAo ... sp=sharing

Western part is dual carriageway whereas the eastern part (ie east of current A90) is single carriageway.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Altnabreac »

MrEnder666 wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 17:03 Dundee (outer) bypass:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aPHAo ... sp=sharing

Western part is dual carriageway whereas the eastern part (ie east of current A90) is single carriageway.
Looks maybe not too far from plausible, except at the eastern end.

Given the A92 is non trunk I suspect it might get missed off entirely though I personally think that's a mistake and any bypass should continue to Monifieth.

However if it is built I think its very unlikely that the A92 link would be grade separated while the A90 junction at Calverhouse is at grade.

Ideally you'd want a grade separated link from new bypass to A90 northbound but assuming we don't get that I think any eastward A92 extension of the bypass would also be expected to share the resulting roundabout.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by themadhatter »

I don't know how well people know the "new" dualled A92 from Dundee to Arbroath, but I'm amazed so much of it has a 40 mph limit. Sure there are roundabouts, but these have their own effect of reducing the speed. Forty seems crazily low.
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novaecosse
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by novaecosse »

themadhatter wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 14:49 I don't know how well people know the "new" dualled A92 from Dundee to Arbroath, but I'm amazed so much of it has a 40 mph limit. Sure there are roundabouts, but these have their own effect of reducing the speed. Forty seems crazily low.
It is crazily low, but it’s set by Dundee City Council, who have a track record of reducing speed limits on their main arterial routes. Transportation have got it into their heads that you can’t have a signalised pedestrian crossing on a road with a limit greater than 40mph. :roll:
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Euan
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Euan »

It might be worth pointing out that the A92 between Dundee and Arbroath is not a trunk road, so it falls into the remit of Dundee City Council and Angus Council and will only be regarded as a local road where fast speeds might not be seen as such a priority, especially within a city.
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themadhatter
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by themadhatter »

That's interesting, because I emailed Dundee City council about the A92 in Dundee city near Gallagher retail park, and the apparent no right turn (widely ignored) into East Whale Lane heading west. I got the reply:

"Thank you for the email and unfortunately the A92 is a trunk road and Dundee City Council is not the roads authority for this road. Transport Scotland and BEAR scotland are the organistaions that are responsible for this and this includes all signage and maintenance. I will pass your concerns onto them and let them know your thoughts."

Of course he never did reply, even when I prompted him.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by cb a1 »

themadhatter wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 23:44 That's interesting, because I emailed Dundee City council about the A92 in Dundee city near Gallagher retail park, and the apparent no right turn (widely ignored) into East Whale Lane heading west.
That part of the A92 is a trunk road.

It's not particularly detailed, but you can see approximately what roads are trunk on this map.

Of course, the SABRE wiki has a much better and more detailed explanation of which parts of the A92 are trunk and which parts aren't!.
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From the SABRE Wiki: A92 :


Originally Scotland's main east-coast route north of the Firth of Forth, linking Fife, Dundee, Angus, Kincardineshire, Aberdeen and Fraserburgh, the A92 has a complex history. It's undergone many route changes and suffered a significant truncation in the 1990s, leaving it as a route from Dunfermline - Dundee - Stonehaven. In 2018, it regained a part of its former northern section from Stonehaven to Blackdog following the opening of the AWPR. The A92 now continues from Stonehaven, runs

... Read More
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by orudge »

If you check SABRE Maps (the default OpenStreetMap view), the trunk A92 is red, versus orange for the non-trunk road.
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Euan
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by Euan »

Yes the A92 is only a trunk road through Fife, across the Tay Road Bridge as far as Scott Fyffe Roundabout in Dundee - the rest of the route up the Angus coast and up to Stonehaven is managed locally. There must without a doubt be some confusion amongst the wider public over roads like the A92 that are partially trunk as it will be unclear whether to contact the local council or Transport Scotland for any problems or queries.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by orudge »

The “new” A92 north of Stonehaven is now trunk too, but only to the A956 where the road is then non-trunk through to Blackdog once again.
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by novaecosse »

themadhatter wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 23:44 That's interesting, because I emailed Dundee City council about the A92 in Dundee city near Gallagher retail park, and the apparent no right turn (widely ignored) into East Whale Lane heading west. I got the reply:

"Thank you for the email and unfortunately the A92 is a trunk road and Dundee City Council is not the roads authority for this road. Transport Scotland and BEAR scotland are the organistaions that are responsible for this and this includes all signage and maintenance. I will pass your concerns onto them and let them know your thoughts."

Of course he never did reply, even when I prompted him.
Your better asking here. :lol:

I’ve never heard either.

The new sign plate was erected by Dundee City Council when they remodelled East Whale Lane.
We altered the road marking to remove the right hand arrow, so it just shows straight ahead.

I’ve never seen a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order for it. I’ve certainly never drafted one for it, so suspect it’s incorporated into Dundee City Councils TRO for East Whale Lane.

“Enforcement of No Right Turn bans is a Policing matter”... that’s a pre-quote from my reply email if I get asked about it. :wink:
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Re: Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

Post by cb a1 »

novaecosse wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 20:26Your better asking here. :lol:

I’ve never heard either.

The new sign plate was erected by Dundee City Council when they remodelled East Whale Lane.
We altered the road marking to remove the right hand arrow, so it just shows straight ahead.

I’ve never seen a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order for it. I’ve certainly never drafted one for it, so suspect it’s incorporated into Dundee City Councils TRO for East Whale Lane.

“Enforcement of No Right Turn bans is a Policing matter”... that’s a pre-quote from my reply email if I get asked about it. :wink:
I just looked at the junction on Google as it's not a movement I would ever be making or even thinking of making.

If you need evidence of vehicles turning right here the Google car snapped its photo at the perfect moment :-). https://goo.gl/maps/kZH73gGjSyR2
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
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