Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
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Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Sooo, I think I just found a little loophole which means that you can drive along the main road along Brighton and Hove's seafront at 50MPH (supposed to be 30MPH).
If you are heading westbound along the A259 from Roedean, it is a dual carriageway at 50MPH, then you enter these 30MPH signs https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.81397 ... 312!8i6656 but wait, those are 450mm diameter, don't they have to be 900mm (or 750mm if 85% percentile is less than 40MPH).
So the question is, are these legally enforceable? At what point is it no longer exploitable? There are no repeater signs (due to it being a 30).
And yes, I am reporting it to the city council, however since they are green they will likely replace the sign with a cycle path.
^that one was a joke (but kinda true)
If you are heading westbound along the A259 from Roedean, it is a dual carriageway at 50MPH, then you enter these 30MPH signs https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.81397 ... 312!8i6656 but wait, those are 450mm diameter, don't they have to be 900mm (or 750mm if 85% percentile is less than 40MPH).
So the question is, are these legally enforceable? At what point is it no longer exploitable? There are no repeater signs (due to it being a 30).
And yes, I am reporting it to the city council, however since they are green they will likely replace the sign with a cycle path.
^that one was a joke (but kinda true)
- Conekicker
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Yes, they are legally enforceable. Although you are quite free to drive at any speed you wish and discuss this with the police should they decide to have words with you.
Guidance regarding the sizes of terminal signs (other than at junctions) is shown in the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3, Table 8-1.
Can you spot the critical word in the preceding sentence?
Whilst the use of such signs as are present at this location might be unwise, it isn't unlawful.
Guidance regarding the sizes of terminal signs (other than at junctions) is shown in the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3, Table 8-1.
Can you spot the critical word in the preceding sentence?
Whilst the use of such signs as are present at this location might be unwise, it isn't unlawful.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
In Chapter 3, 1.2.2 It says
and then 1.2.3 and 1.2.5 have parts that reinforce that.Care should be taken to ensure that traffic signs are used only as prescribed in the
Regulations, and in accordance with any relevant directions, and that no non‑prescribed sign is
used unless it has been formally authorised in writing. Failure to do so may leave an authority
open to litigation, or make a traffic regulation order (TRO) unenforceable.
In Chapter 3, 8.1.1
Which like most of the TSM, is saying its a grey area if it can be enforceable or not.Signs that do not strictly follow TSRGD (see 1.1.4 in respect of Northern Ireland), or have not been specially authorised are
not lawfully placed and the speed limit might be unenforceable
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
The quotes you took from Chapter 3 are telling you that a limit may be unenforceable if it's not indicated with the prescribed signs. The sizes of those signs, as set out in table 8-1, are guidance. In other words the type of sign must be correct but the size of that sign is up to the designer.
The Road Traffic Regulation Act leaves no grey areas when it states that a 30mph limit applies to any road with a system of street lighting. The road in question has a system of street lighting. No local limit has been applied to vary the default, and no signs exist within the system of street lighting to indicate another limit.
I think you'd have trouble convincing a court that anything other than a 30mph limit existed there.
(If you want to be really on the ball, the right-hand of those two "30" signs is non-prescribed, because like many backlit signs installed a decade or so back, it was bought from some cowboy firm who didn't use the right lettering on speed limit roundels and it's not in Transport Heavy. But the sign on the left is the correct sign face so it's immaterial.)
The Road Traffic Regulation Act leaves no grey areas when it states that a 30mph limit applies to any road with a system of street lighting. The road in question has a system of street lighting. No local limit has been applied to vary the default, and no signs exist within the system of street lighting to indicate another limit.
I think you'd have trouble convincing a court that anything other than a 30mph limit existed there.
(If you want to be really on the ball, the right-hand of those two "30" signs is non-prescribed, because like many backlit signs installed a decade or so back, it was bought from some cowboy firm who didn't use the right lettering on speed limit roundels and it's not in Transport Heavy. But the sign on the left is the correct sign face so it's immaterial.)
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Nor does it have a retro reflective sign face, which whilst not 100% legally required does cause problems if the electrical supply fails.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 12:37 The quotes you took from Chapter 3 are telling you that a limit may be unenforceable if it's not indicated with the prescribed signs. The sizes of those signs, as set out in table 8-1, are guidance. In other words the type of sign must be correct but the size of that sign is up to the designer.
The Road Traffic Regulation Act leaves no grey areas when it states that a 30mph limit applies to any road with a system of street lighting. The road in question has a system of street lighting. No local limit has been applied to vary the default, and no signs exist within the system of street lighting to indicate another limit.
I think you'd have trouble convincing a court that anything other than a 30mph limit existed there.
(If you want to be really on the ball, the right-hand of those two "30" signs is non-prescribed, because like many backlit signs installed a decade or so back, it was bought from some cowboy firm who didn't use the right lettering on speed limit roundels and it's not in Transport Heavy. But the sign on the left is the correct sign face so it's immaterial.)
Bryn
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- nodnirG kraM
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Interesting that you should use Brighton as this example as it was an ex copper from Sussex who successfully had his multiple tickets nullified after a 40 limit was signed with terminal signs of the correct size, with a yellow backing board, but with a black border on this yellow background. At the time this meant the sign was technically non-prescribed and therefore unenforceable.
- Conekicker
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Such signs are still non-prescribed.nodnirG kraM wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 00:25 Interesting that you should use Brighton as this example as it was an ex copper from Sussex who successfully had his multiple tickets nullified after a 40 limit was signed with terminal signs of the correct size, with a yellow backing board, but with a black border on this yellow background. At the time this meant the sign was technically non-prescribed and therefore unenforceable.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
What about speed limit signs with 15 on them? I couldn't find anything to say they were illegal.
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Not a prescribed variation, all of which are in tens of units (20/30/40/50/60)
EDIT: oh good point. Nor is there a restriction in RTRA on what speed limits may be authorised.
EDIT: oh good point. Nor is there a restriction in RTRA on what speed limits may be authorised.
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Indeed. Just a note to say that it must be one of the allowed limits set by the national authority (eg. DfT).
- Conekicker
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
...and as the allowed limits are in 10s then something with a 5 in it wouldn't be correct:
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
That doesn't list allowable speed limits on signs, only default classes for vehicle/type of road.Conekicker wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 14:37...and as the allowed limits are in 10s then something with a 5 in it wouldn't be correct:
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Whether they're legal or not, Orkney Islands Council has a substantial number of 15mph limits in Kirkwall and Stromness in particular.
Owen Rudge
http://www.owenrudge.net/
http://www.owenrudge.net/
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Probably authorised by the Scottish government though. There's a divergence on views regarding traffic signs - see the bypass signs and speed limit countdowns for examples.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
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YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
I think they predate devolution, but presumably the principle remains the same.
Many of them are on very narrow streets and should probably be pedestrianised entirely anyway!
Many of them are on very narrow streets and should probably be pedestrianised entirely anyway!
Owen Rudge
http://www.owenrudge.net/
http://www.owenrudge.net/
Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
I vaguely remember the law being changed recently so that a speed limit was enforceable even if signed incorrectly (presumably in an attempt to reduce the number of speeders going free on technicalities; the alternative, of getting councils to put up the correct signs, is probably unattainable). I'm not 100% certain on this, though.
- Patrick Harper
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
Are speed limit signs enforceable if they use an incorrect font?
- Chris Bertram
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
They shouldn't be. The whole point of having legally mandated formats for signs in terms of shapes, graphics fonts and wording is that we should be able to tell official signs from any old crap that might be erected by someone with a bee in their bonnet. If official signs start to look like the other crap then we start getting onto some very unsafe ground and Mr Loophole will be working out how many zeros he can add to his bill.
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
It's all down to the "were you given adequate guidance" test. A homemade sign will be very obviously not official, unless someone has a £50,000 plotter in their bedroom capable of printing retro-reflective sign material.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 18:53They shouldn't be. The whole point of having legally mandated formats for signs in terms of shapes, graphics fonts and wording is that we should be able to tell official signs from any old crap that might be erected by someone with a bee in their bonnet. If official signs start to look like the other crap then we start getting onto some very unsafe ground and Mr Loophole will be working out how many zeros he can add to his bill.
It's telling there are manufacturers producing speed limit signs in the wrong typeface though... lack of caring yet again.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
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Re: Legality of incorrect speed limit signs?
The crazy point there is that speed limit signs are an absolute standard off-the-shelf design. It shouldn't logically be possible for a sign manufacturer to get them wrong.