SABRE is not a campaigning organisation.
I suggest you write to Transport Scotland and get the official response from them, outlining their benefits.
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SABRE is not a campaigning organisation.
I'm not sure that's true. Why does the motorist even need to know what the unit of measurement is? It has no effect on how you use the sign. Most motorways don't start at 0 so the signs won't even tell you how far from the start of the road you are, only where you are.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:44 Driver location signs smell of beign a good idea until some politician saw the word "kilometre" in their description and promptly counted out how many vote they would lose to Nigel Farage et al if they promoted the use of DLSs on account of the use of the "K" word. The fact that their use might save lives does nt appear to feasture highly in their priorities.
I frequently use driver location signs to log my progress. Both Wikipedia and CBRD give the DLS readings at various junctions and given that value and the current value, I can work out how far I am from the junctiuon and also how long it should take to get there. If you are on a clear road and drive at 120 km/h (75 mph), you cover 2 km per minute.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 15:12I'm not sure that's true. Why does the motorist even need to know what the unit of measurement is? It has no effect on how you use the sign. Most motorways don't start at 0 so the signs won't even tell you how far from the start of the road you are, only where you are.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:44 Driver location signs smell of beign a good idea until some politician saw the word "kilometre" in their description and promptly counted out how many vote they would lose to Nigel Farage et al if they promoted the use of DLSs on account of the use of the "K" word. The fact that their use might save lives does nt appear to feasture highly in their priorities.
I'm as sceptical of the Daily Mail as the next person and I don't doubt they might make a story about it, but they make a story about a lot of things and very little of it lasts more than 48 hours.
If politicians were that bothered about "saving lives" as you put it, there would be plenty of ways to get around the issue of the unit of measurement.
Good for you. But that has nothing to do with "saving lives", so I'm now even more confused about what your concern was.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 18:39 I frequently use driver location signs to log my progress. Both Wikipedia and CBRD give the DLS readings at various junctions and given that value and the current value, I can work out how far I am from the junctiuon and also how long it should take to get there. If you are on a clear road and drive at 120 km/h (75 mph), you cover 2 km per minute.
Yup, giving an exact 3x3 square to the emergency services which could in theory narrow it down to even which lane the emergency is in when your phone could have drifted off to the other side of a motorway several lanes and the entire other carriageway away is not helpful.FosseWay wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:52I don't have a problem with What3Words as such, but find it to be overly precise. It gives a false sense of precision to quote to 3 square metres if your phone's GPS is only accurate to 10 square metres in the most favourable conditions. It's a bit like saying me confidently stating that the meteorite that killed off the dinosaurs fell 65,000,033 years ago precisely because it says 65 million in a book published in 1986.
An example that I had in mind is described here. After an accident on the M5, Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue received a number of calls, but some were so vague (or plainly incorrect) that they did not know whether there was one accident or two, or which lanes were affected or even where the accident was. As a result emergeny services from four different locatiosn were mobilised in order to deal with an incident (or incidents) along a 40 mile stretch of motorway. This meant that resources that might have been needed elsewhere were tied up.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 20:11Good for you. But that has nothing to do with "saving lives", so I'm now even more confused about what your concern was.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 18:39 I frequently use driver location signs to log my progress. Both Wikipedia and CBRD give the DLS readings at various junctions and given that value and the current value, I can work out how far I am from the junctiuon and also how long it should take to get there. If you are on a clear road and drive at 120 km/h (75 mph), you cover 2 km per minute.
What's more, the vast majority of motorists don't need to mentally calculate how long it "should" take to get anywhere, because they insist on using a gadget which tells them exactly how long the journey is likely to take. Most people do not care how long it is likely to take to get to the next junction, it is of no relevance to them. You are not going to change that.
So this is a use you have created for DLS that virtually only you use, and you're then saying DLS can't be used to save lives because politicians are worried that metric-haters will find out that one person on SABRE also use DLS to carry out mental arithmetic in metric? Daily Mail readers have the capacity to worry about a lot of things but I don't think that is going to be high on their agenda.
It doesn't make any sense. If you enjoy doing mental metric arithmetic with the information on DLS then good for you. We are a society of people who like doing things our own way. But you don't need to make out that it's some-kind of dark secret that the powerful elite wouldn't approve of, because it isn't.
I am not sure that I agree with you.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 20:11 We are a society of people who like doing things our own way. But you don't need to make out that it's some-kind of dark secret that the powerful elite wouldn't approve of, because it isn't.
Ah, but it's true.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 15:12I'm not sure that's true. Why does the motorist even need to know what the unit of measurement is? It has no effect on how you use the sign. Most motorways don't start at 0 so the signs won't even tell you how far from the start of the road you are, only where you are.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:44 Driver location signs smell of beign a good idea until some politician saw the word "kilometre" in their description and promptly counted out how many vote they would lose to Nigel Farage et al if they promoted the use of DLSs on account of the use of the "K" word. The fact that their use might save lives does nt appear to feasture highly in their priorities.
I'm as sceptical of the Daily Mail as the next person and I don't doubt they might make a story about it, but they make a story about a lot of things and very little of it lasts more than 48 hours.
If politicians were that bothered about "saving lives" as you put it, there would be plenty of ways to get around the issue of the unit of measurement.
I'll try to give you a helpful response based upon experience of working in the industry. If people disagree, it would be helpful if they could cite factual backup evidence.
There is no "grand design" at play howeverjervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36So the most extreme example of this I can think of is the A1, which is expected as it's used many alignements of varying quality.
Here are some example from along the A1 (and A1(M)).
*A1(M) Just north of the M25 (24.2) - which I measured to be 24.9 km from the A501 - makes sense.
There is still no "grand design". Different parts of routes were upgraded at different times by different authorities and consultants using different datum points.jervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36*A1 beside the New A14 (3.6). Why did they use another new start point!, and there is no way to distinguish it from other 3.6 markers.
*A1(M) Just North of M1 Junction (56.1), 56 was likely measured from the start of the A1(M) section at Blyth as that is roughly 56km away, although there is a section of A1 between those parts of the A1(M). The A1(M) between Blyth and Doncaster don't have DLS
*A1(M) Just North of Catterick (129.8), it is 125KM north Blyth, so I don't know where those 5KM have disappeared to, however makes sense.
No all in metric - someone has used the shorthand of the marker post numbering when designing the sign using 9/0 instead of 9.0jervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36*A1(M) Beside Darlington (9/0 D), now what is going on here! I'm guessing it's using miles, chains or some other imperial measurement?
No - in my experience everything is metricjervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36Since DLS are fairly new (2007 according to the wiki & 2008 according to wikipedia), why couldn't they just use one unit exclusively, whether it being Miles or KM. As far as I am aware, a lot of motorways are measured in imperial for technical stuff, which is reflected by the smaller location posts you find, however on the same bit of road, KMs are sometimes used for DLS.
A new route = a new datum
jervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36So the M23 starts at 27 km at junction 7 (its Northern Terminus), however it was only ever planned to go about 18 KM further North into London, why would its 0 point be 1/2 further than it needs to be? Also when the M23 turns into the A23, why does the A23 count from Brighton? Surely it would just make sense to carry on counting from the M23. Hopefully if/when the M23 extends down the A23, they will count from London to keep it consistent.
The M23 was designed as a single route from London to Crawley in metric and the datum point was set somewhere just south of Streatham High Road near Streatham station for convenience.jervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 13:36J11 roadwork signage plans showing distances. I measured the distance between 24/8 and 25/7 on the A23 being 881metres/0.55mi/2890ft apart. Which equates the first number being a half-mile and the second number being a tenth of a half mile (or a 1/20th of a mile). Is this common on the rest of the network? and why use half-miles and a fraction of that, why not just use full miles, chains and furlongs?
So maybe that is what the "D" is for at the end of A1(M) near Darlington? So it makes that section is unique, even if other parts of the A1 use the same kilometerage?The information shown on a driver location sign must always be uniquecompared to other driver location signs, to minimise confusion following the reporting of an incident or defect. This means that a national distance referencing system should be used on driver location signs and distance marker posts along a route, i.e. the distance shown must be unique for the route, if the concept of driver location signs is to be a success. It is recommended that adjacent area teams and DBFO teams along a route should liaise to ensure that there is no
duplication of distance information on distance marker posts and driver location signs along a route.
For the avoidance of doubt, this means that there must never be the same legend shown on driver location signs at different locations.
The formatting of the driver's number has never been a secret.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 19:50 .... when I got my British driving licence (the old green type), I could cut off the bottom right hand corner if I did not want my date of birth to appear on my licence, even though it was encoded into my licence number, but they were not telling me that....
I remember that being explained when I was about 14 in Computer Studies, I then spotted the encoding used was ambiguous. Two different dates of birth could give the same number.avtur wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 22:43The formatting of the driver's number has never been a secret.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 19:50 .... when I got my British driving licence (the old green type), I could cut off the bottom right hand corner if I did not want my date of birth to appear on my licence, even though it was encoded into my licence number, but they were not telling me that....
DLS were originally only on motorways, 100m posts giving direction to the nearest emergency phone.jervi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 21:21 ...
I was thinking a bit harder, and I think I worked out why there are four datum points (at-least signed). Maybe, due to the uncertainty of the distances of the A1 in the future (due to upgrades), they set new points at the end of each uncertain section (Non-Motorway that were around in 2008). These sections would of been:
*A501 (Northern Circular) -> A14 - section "A" - 99.95km (on current northbound alignment)
*A14 -> J34 (Blyth) - section "B" - 142.75km (on current northbound alignment)
*J34 -> J56 - section "C" - 139.1 km
*J56 - ??? - section "D"
*??? - ??? - section "E" - as more isolated section are built to motorway/expressway standard
...
How so ?JohnnyMo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 08:01I remember that being explained when I was about 14 in Computer Studies, I then spotted the encoding used was ambiguous. Two different dates of birth could give the same number.avtur wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 22:43The formatting of the driver's number has never been a secret.Vierwielen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 19:50 .... when I got my British driving licence (the old green type), I could cut off the bottom right hand corner if I did not want my date of birth to appear on my licence, even though it was encoded into my licence number, but they were not telling me that....
I can't now remember the algorithm used.
I've spent ages on GSV trying to find NLS as well as marker posts, and anything North of the A1(M) is hard to find any marker posts. I couldn't find any.JohnnyMo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 13:07 It is now a problem with mobile phones and national call centres where duplicate DLS can be problematic.
I can remember the A1 in Yorkshire used the Huntingdon datum point not Blyth, however as these sections were upgraded to motorway the datum point was changed to Blyth.
I have always assumed the D was for Durham.
Are there any DLS on the A1 north of Newcastle?