1:25,000 maps year [SOLVED]

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Catchpole
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1:25,000 maps year [SOLVED]

Post by Catchpole » Mon Oct 28, 2019 17:49

When I look at 1" OS maps I have the option to select a year when the map was produced.
If I then choose the 1:25,000 maps there is no option to select when the map was published. When using this option I can't be sure of the date of certain features on the larger scale maps.
It's important to me for tracing the geographical history of an area.

Does anyone know what year the 1:25,000 maps represent?
Last edited by Catchpole on Tue Oct 29, 2019 19:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:05

Catchpole wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 17:49
When I look at 1" OS maps I have the option to select a year when the map was produced.
If I then choose the 1:25,000 maps there is no option to select when the map was published. When using this option I can't be sure of the date of certain features on the larger scale maps.
It's important to me for tracing the geographical history of an area.

Does anyone know what year the 1:25,000 maps represent?
Are you talking about paper maps or on line maps ?

In the case of paper maps its printed in the title box of the map. I am looking at my copy of OS Explorer Map 119 - Meon Valley, Portsmouth, Gosport & Fareham. Under Customer Information it says the following

Edition A2
Revised 1998
Revised for Specific Change 2004, 2009
Reprinted with minor change 2010

The online maps were I believe updated in 2015. The last few paper maps I bought actually come with a code behind a scratch panel that lets you access the rmap online from a tablet of smartphone.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Catchpole » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:21

Hi keithW,

It's the online maps on this site that I'm looking at. I'm familiar with OS maps being a keen walker.
Historic development is what I'm interested in. I can see the six inches to the mile on the National Library of Scotland (NLS) site. It's very good. The six inch series at NLS are between the 1840s and 1940s so I have to use this site to see the younger OS one inch maps and there's a choice of what year on a drop down menu. However there's no choice for the 1:25,000 maps (two and a half inch to the mile) to choose a year and it's not shown on the screen.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by c2R » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:35

Hi Catchpole,

I'm sure Steven will be able to give a fuller answer, but essentially the maps are a work in progress, and the society (mainly Steven) is scanning and separating One Inch maps into specific layers to make the resource available.

See:
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ge_project

We're after more:

* physical maps
* people to scan maps
* people to dissect and stitch together scanned maps
* people to georeference the stitched maps

So if you can help in any way, or know anyone that can, please let us know!

Cheers
Chris
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From the SABRE Wiki: SABRE Maps/Seventh Series coverage project :
Seventh Series cover
Final series cover

This SABRE Maps Coverage Project is to provide online coverage of the One Inch Seventh Series and associated maps.

This was the first Ordnance Survey mapping at the One Inch scale to be a single series across the whole of Great Britain, and is useful for us to have as it shows mapping at a relatively detailed scale during the major

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Steven » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:48

Catchpole wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 17:49
Does anyone know what year the 1:25,000 maps represent?
The 1:25,000 map layer on SABRE maps isn't actually a single year, but a composite across the 1950s. Unfortunately, as we were granted access to them by another source, we don't have the full revision information that we have for "in-house" map layers, such as the One Inch Seventh Series or Ministry of Transport map layers.
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:55

Catchpole wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:21
Hi keithW,

It's the online maps on this site that I'm looking at. I'm familiar with OS maps being a keen walker.
Historic development is what I'm interested in. I can see the six inches to the mile on the National Library of Scotland (NLS) site. It's very good. The six inch series at NLS are between the 1840s and 1940s so I have to use this site to see the younger OS one inch maps and there's a choice of what year on a drop down menu. However there's no choice for the 1:25,000 maps (two and a half inch to the mile) to choose a year and it's not shown on the screen.

I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it. In the case of the old maps on the Sabre 1:25,000 layer I imagine it is a composite of whatever paper maps could be found and scanned.

For detailed maps with a known date I use the 1:2500 and 1:10000 maps on the old maps site. Here is an example of the 1:2500 map of Bar Hill in 1977. You can browse there at a restricted level of detail
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/538500 ... /12/100954

If you want fully detailed paper or PDF's then you have to pay for that.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Pages/Prices

Alternatively for £10 per month you get use of the Enhanced On Line maps

It is possible to get specific versions from the National Archives but its not a trivial (or cheap) task. If you have a readers card you can consult a map at the British Library otherwise you have to trawl through ebay.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Steven » Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:23

KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:05
Catchpole wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 17:49
When I look at 1" OS maps I have the option to select a year when the map was produced.
If I then choose the 1:25,000 maps there is no option to select when the map was published. When using this option I can't be sure of the date of certain features on the larger scale maps.
It's important to me for tracing the geographical history of an area.

Does anyone know what year the 1:25,000 maps represent?
Are you talking about paper maps or on line maps ?

In the case of paper maps its printed in the title box of the map.
Only on modern maps is this the case. The SABRE Maps OS Copyright page goes into the problem.
Steven

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From the SABRE Wiki: SABRE Maps/OS Copyright :

In simple terms, Crown Copyright (for Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland maps) lasts for 50 complete years, so maps safely can be used on the 1st January after the 50 years are up. Government Copyright for Ordnance Survey Ireland mapping also lasts for 50 years. All other mapping has a copyright of 70 years or the life of the author plus 70 years for a work with a named author. This last clause means that all A-Z maps that specifically

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Steven » Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:24

KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:55
I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it. In the case of the old maps on the Sabre 1:25,000 layer I imagine it is a composite of whatever paper maps could be found and scanned.
I think you perhaps need to look at what is available on SABRE Maps a little more rather than dismissing it, given this is literally terrible and inaccurate advice! :laugh: :laugh:
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Ritchie333 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:35

KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:55
It is possible to get specific versions from the National Archives but its not a trivial (or cheap) task.
I would guess one would have to define "trivial" as how easy it is to get to Kew Gardens tube station, but for the 1956 Ten Mile map I asked the staff "can I have a scan of that", "sure, be a couple of quid", "can I put it on the website if I give you credit", "that sounds fine".
KeithW wrote:For detailed maps with a known date I use the 1:2500 and 1:10000 maps on the old maps site
I use SABRE Maps. Much better :D
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Ritchie333 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:37

Steven wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:24
KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:55
I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it. In the case of the old maps on the Sabre 1:25,000 layer I imagine it is a composite of whatever paper maps could be found and scanned.
I think you perhaps need to look at what is available on SABRE Maps a little more rather than dismissing it, given this is literally terrible and inaccurate advice! :laugh: :laugh:
The 1:25,000 layer is a mirror of the National Library of Scotland's coverage, and it's whatever maps they happened to scan. (The library, incidentally, is well worth a visit, and if you can get a dedicated appointment, as I did with Chris5156 some years back, it's like popping into a sweetshop of maps). There is a way of configuring the data to say which map it is; it's just somebody needs to do the grunt work and I never quite got round to it.
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:27

Steven wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:24
KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 19:55
I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it. In the case of the old maps on the Sabre 1:25,000 layer I imagine it is a composite of whatever paper maps could be found and scanned.
I think you perhaps need to look at what is available on SABRE Maps a little more rather than dismissing it, given this is literally terrible and inaccurate advice! :laugh: :laugh:
I have looked at Sabre Maps, I am not dismissing it as its something I use frequently and moreover I did make it clear that I was speculating. The advice I gave was to visit the National Library or go to the old maps web site which has archived dated copies of the detailed OS Plot plans. The Sabre maps 1:25000 layers do NOT have date attributes. However do feel free to snipe at someone who was just trying to be helpful if that's how you get your laughs.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Ritchie333 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:31

KeithW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:27
The Sabre maps 1:25000 layers do NOT have date attributes.
At the risk of stating the obvious, they don't have them because I never found the spare time to sit down and do them. However, if you want to send me a text file with all the sheet numbers and dates (I think they're all documented on the NLS website somewhere), they'll get done.
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:34

Ritchie333 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 20:35

I would guess one would have to define "trivial" as how easy it is to get to Kew Gardens tube station, but for the 1956 Ten Mile map I asked the staff "can I have a scan of that", "sure, be a couple of quid", "can I put it on the website if I give you credit", "that sounds fine".
KeithW wrote:For detailed maps with a known date I use the 1:2500 and 1:10000 maps on the old maps site
I use SABRE Maps. Much better :D
It isnt trivial if you live in the NE of England. Its a 3 hour train ride on the ECML and the original poster made it clear that dates were important. I also use maps for historical research, fortunately my local library reference section has a good selection of local maps which is my main interest. Again it appears I am expected to apologise for trying to be helpful. Dont worry I wont make that mistake again.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Ritchie333 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:44

I think your problem is you kind of insulted someone by implying that what they do for fun in their spare time isn't good enough. :?
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Alderpoint » Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:59

Ritchie333 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:44
I think your problem is you kind of insulted someone by implying that what they do for fun in their spare time isn't good enough. :?
That's pretty common unfortunatly nowadays and why I am no longer involved with a number of projects for which I was not being paid.
Let it snow.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Tue Oct 29, 2019 00:34

Ritchie333 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 21:44
I think your problem is you kind of insulted someone by implying that what they do for fun in their spare time isn't good enough. :?
I criticised nobody and as it happens I spend a lot of time doing unpaid work on a number of Standards Organisation working groups despite being retired. If they feel insulted then I am happy to say that no insult was intended and it seems that my statement that the specific dating information requested was not present in the Sabre maps was correct. I simply pointed out alternative methods of obtaining that information. If that was considered insulting then I am surprised.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by Steven » Tue Oct 29, 2019 08:10

KeithW wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 00:34
it seems that my statement that the specific dating information requested was not present in the Sabre maps was correct. I simply pointed out alternative methods of obtaining that information. If that was considered insulting then I am surprised.
Actually, what you said was:
KeithW wrote:I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it
Which is clearly not the case on the majority of layers - which it what I was referring to in that your comment was extremely inaccurate and unhelpful.

Now, I need some help in getting the rest of the layers annotated - does this mean that you are willing to help with this?
Attachments
annotation1.JPG
annotation2.JPG
annotation3.JPG
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Re: 1:25,000 maps year

Post by KeithW » Tue Oct 29, 2019 08:31

Steven wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 08:10
KeithW wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 00:34
it seems that my statement that the specific dating information requested was not present in the Sabre maps was correct. I simply pointed out alternative methods of obtaining that information. If that was considered insulting then I am surprised.
Actually, what you said was:
KeithW wrote:I think the only assumption you can make is that the Ordnance Survey Modern version online is the latest OS approved release the day you look at it
Which is clearly not the case on the majority of layers - which it what I was referring to in that your comment was extremely inaccurate and unhelpful.

Now, I need some help in getting the rest of the layers annotated - does this mean that you are willing to help with this?
Yes

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year [SOLVED]

Post by Catchpole » Tue Oct 29, 2019 09:15

Hi Steven,
The 1:25,000 map layer on SABRE maps isn't actually a single year, but a composite across the 1950s
Thanks for this. At least I've got some idea of a time scale to work with now.

Perhaps the Society should have the facility for the collection of donations from users who don't actually take part in its construction or maintenance. Thanks to all who do.

(Please gentlemen, don't argue amongst yourselves because of my enquiry) :wink:

Regards, Catchpole.

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Re: 1:25,000 maps year [SOLVED]

Post by Steven » Wed Nov 13, 2019 19:19

And thanks to some hard work by KeithW, the first few 1:25,000 maps on SABRE Maps now have their annotations giving revision code and date. Right now they're just the first few in Caithness, but I'm sure coverage will work its way from there, but it may take some time before full coverage is achieved - it's a lot of sheets!
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