Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

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SteelCamel
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by SteelCamel » Sat Oct 03, 2020 19:56

NC500, at 518 miles? It certainly doesn't go anywhere near any motorways.

You didn't mention Ireland - the N59 at 185 miles looks like a good candidate (and longer than any of the Scottish ones so far, if NC500 doesn't count).

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Gareth Thomas » Sun Oct 04, 2020 02:12

owen b wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 19:33
someone wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 19:06
owen b wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 16:29
But according to the Ordnance Survey, the M20 J13 dumbbell is part of the A259, not the A20. So the A259 does meet a motorway directly. The SABRE wiki also refers to the A259 heading east from M20 J13. Of course it's possible that both are wrong, but based on the easily available evidence the A259 does meet the M20.
Google show the dumbbell as part of the A20, some of the signage shows it as the A20 and, more significantly it is maintained by Highways England as part of the M20 and A20. The other connecting roads, including the A259 and A2034, are maintained by Kent County Council. So from a purely administrative perspective it would be easier to make it the A20.
Ok, so it's unclear whether the dumbbell junction itself is part of the A20 or the A259, as the evidence is contradictory. But going back to the original question : "what's the longest road which doesn't cross, connect to or go under a Motorway at all", the A259 does meet M20 J13, so I think on any reasonable non-legalistic basis it's correct to say that the A259 connects to the motorway M20 at M20 J13.
I always considered the A259 to be an unsigned road (as in, it isn't signed on either the M20 or A20) at Junction 13. It and the M20 entry slip both meet at the same roundabout, so you don't even need to use any bit of the A20 to get from one to the other (assuming the roundabout isn't part of any road in particular).

Until the current A20 opened, the A259 (and A260) both finished at the Churchill Avenue roundabout, so it would definitely have qualified then.
jervi wrote:
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Also by doing this I've realised that the A25 doesn't connect at all to the M25 or any other motorway directly (although it does cross the M23). But it kinda has a junction with the A21 (M?)
That section from Junction 5 to the A25 junction is still part of the M25, so the A25 does meet the M25 here. I don't know why Google shows it as A21 but it is only A21 south of this junction.

Think of it as a Junction 5A. :-)
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Micro The Maniac » Sun Oct 04, 2020 08:45

What about A35 ?

At 90.9 miles from when the A33 turns into the A35 (note: West of the Redbridge Roundabout, so not touching M271[*]) to the A30 at Honiton, it doesn't touch a motorway... although the short (useless) multiplex with A338 in Bournemouth may disqualify it.

I'm treating the Southampton "Y" spur is a separate road..., although that doesn't touch a motorway either, but has another (useless) multiplex, this time with A33?

[*] Sidenote: The M271 terminates short of the Redbridge Roundabout, in any case...

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by agc2070 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 19:46

As far as I can tell the real A20 just disappears between M20 j13 and j12. Cherry Garden Avenue is the A2034 and Cheriton High Street is the B2064, so ignoring the signs that have never been updated I would say that the A259 is the principal road leaving the A20/M20 at j13 as it is primary while the A2034 is non-primary. Much as I’d like it to be a record holder I view it as touching - not even 2m social distancing!

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by someone » Sun Oct 04, 2020 22:19

I did a quick bit of searching to see if we can escape the A259 question.

According to Kent County Council's statutory List of Streets, the Castle Hill Roundabout, Castle Hill Bridge, and Churchill Avenue Roundabout (the component parts of the Castle Hill Interchange dumbbell) are all part of the A259.

https://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/p ... report.pdf

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Micro The Maniac » Mon Oct 05, 2020 05:44

someone wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 22:19
According to Kent County Council's statutory List of Streets, the Castle Hill Roundabout, Castle Hill Bridge, and Churchill Avenue Roundabout (the component parts of the Castle Hill Interchange dumbbell) are all part of the A259.
Fair cop, guv.

Incidentally, OSM does too... as does Ordnance Survey online.

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by A303Chris » Mon Oct 05, 2020 14:14

A487 along Wales west coast 171 miles, including the 16 mile multiplex with the A470 and the 26 mile non primary length round St Davids.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Mark Hewitt » Mon Oct 05, 2020 14:17

SteelCamel wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 19:56
NC500, at 518 miles? It certainly doesn't go anywhere near any motorways.
NC500 isn't a classified road it's a route suggestion. But certainly some of the roads that make it up like the A838 are likely candidates.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Owain » Mon Oct 05, 2020 14:49

Northern Ireland's winner will probably be the A5. It doesn't get anywhere near a motorway.

The A2 is something like 300 miles long, but it connects with both the M2 and M3 in Belfast. The A29 would be a contender too, but it just touches the end of the M1.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Roavin » Tue Oct 06, 2020 18:40

If it wasn't for that one junction with the M8 in central Glasgow the longest in GB would almost certainly be the A82 at 167 miles
I am obsessed with the A1237 and A1079.

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by SouthWest Philip » Tue Oct 06, 2020 20:52

Roavin wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 18:40
If it wasn't for that one junction with the M8 in central Glasgow the longest in GB would almost certainly be the A82 at 167 miles
Already established earlier in the thread that the A487 is longer.

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Roavin » Tue Oct 06, 2020 21:24

SouthWest Philip wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 20:52
Roavin wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 18:40
If it wasn't for that one junction with the M8 in central Glasgow the longest in GB would almost certainly be the A82 at 167 miles
Already established earlier in the thread that the A487 is longer.
Apologies, I must've missed that
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Owain » Wed Oct 07, 2020 18:16

Mark Hewitt wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 14:17
SteelCamel wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 19:56
NC500, at 518 miles? It certainly doesn't go anywhere near any motorways.
NC500 isn't a classified road it's a route suggestion. But certainly some of the roads that make it up like the A838 are likely candidates.
The A838 is just over 80 miles, so not actually that impressive. The A836 is 122, so a better contender, but still comfortably beaten by the A487.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by KeithW » Wed Oct 07, 2020 19:36

agc2070 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 19:46
As far as I can tell the real A20 just disappears between M20 j13 and j12. Cherry Garden Avenue is the A2034 and Cheriton High Street is the B2064, so ignoring the signs that have never been updated I would say that the A259 is the principal road leaving the A20/M20 at j13 as it is primary while the A2034 is non-primary. Much as I’d like it to be a record holder I view it as touching - not even 2m social distancing!
The original route of the A20 was the Ashford Road as far Cheriton. When I lived in the area the M20 ended at J12 and from there the A20 went along the high street down what is now the B2064, A2034 and the A2033 into the town centre and ended on Guildhall Street.

Cherry Garden Avenue was a minor road that took you to Cherry Garden Hill and Castle Hill up Castle Hill Avenue near the tunnel portal. It is now gated off here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.09652 ... 312!8i6656

You can see where the road runs up the hill from Caesars Camp here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.09794 ... 312!8i6656

Churchill Avenue was originally built to serve the Park Farm Industrial Estate and with Cherry Garden Avenue was pressed into use as a poor mans bypass to relieve traffic on Cheriton High Street. From the Park Farm roundabout traffic for Dover went up Dover Hill through Capel and ended on York Street in Dover.

As I recall the A259 ended near Folkestone Central Station.

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by ForestChav » Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:08

KeithW wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 19:36


As I recall the A259 ended near Folkestone Central Station.
It initially went all the way to Dover.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Owain » Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:14

ForestChav wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:08
KeithW wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 19:36


As I recall the A259 ended near Folkestone Central Station.
It initially went all the way to Dover.
Indeed it did - I've always thought it odd that the A259 takes (and has always taken) precedence over the A27 after Pevensey.

The fact that the A20-A24 all terminated on it is reasonable enough, considering that they ended at the coast without anywhere else to go. But the A27 runs along the coast rather that into it, so where the two roads meet it doesn't make much sense that it should have been the 3-digit road that made it all the way to Dover.
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by KeithW » Thu Oct 08, 2020 00:30

ForestChav wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:08
KeithW wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 19:36


As I recall the A259 ended near Folkestone Central Station.
It initially went all the way to Dover.
Not according to my memory, the Wiki or any of the maps I looked at in Sabre Maps.

In 1980 I lived in New Romney and was very familiar with the route to and from Dover. At that time the route from Dover was along the then A20 through Capel Le Ferne along the New Dover Road, down Dover Hill to a roundabout. At that roundabout I took a left along what I think was the A259 through the centre of Folkestone past the railway station and on to Hythe, Dymchurch and New Romney. In 1981 the M20 between J11 and J13 was opened which left the M20 terminating on a roundabout at the bottom of Castle Hill. At that point Churchill Avenue was the route between the bottom of Dover Hill and the M20 but for the A259 you took a left which took you south along the east side of Radnor Park . From there the route then as now took you along the coast road through Sandgate , Hythe and St Marys Bay to New Romney.

Assuming it did go to Dover what route did it take ? Churchill Avenue didnt exist before the mid 1960's

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by someone » Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:53

KeithW wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 00:30
ForestChav wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 20:08
KeithW wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 19:36


As I recall the A259 ended near Folkestone Central Station.
It initially went all the way to Dover.
Not according to my memory, the Wiki or any of the maps I looked at in Sabre Maps.
But it is listed in the index at the very top of the A259 wiki entry, under History, as "2.1 Dover – Pevensey"?

The A20 used to end on the A259, but because the majority of Dover traffic came from the Maidstone direction rather than Hastings they flipped the number beyond that point.

The Ten Mile Map for 1956 on Sabre Maps show the route to Dover as the A259, although the same titled map from N.L.S. show it as the A20, so the change must have been around then.

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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:19

someone wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:53
The Ten Mile Map for 1956 on Sabre Maps show the route to Dover as the A259, although the same titled map from N.L.S. show it as the A20, so the change must have been around then.
Oh my life, so it does.

According to the relevant works, there was only one revision published in the 1950s (which was the 1956 revision as stated). But looking carefully at the source map for the SABRE Maps version against the NLS version shows a few subtle differences in the marginalia - the NLS's states Revision A, whereas ours has no letter code. Theirs has the copyright date of 1956, whereas ours says 1955.

There's a few other subtle differences - the A339 between Newbury and Basingstoke is shown as Trunk on the NLS's map, and not on ours. My personal copy of the map matches the NLS's.

To cut a long story short, it looks like the copy on SABRE Maps is actually one of the final proof editions from 1955...
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Re: Trivia: Longest road that doesn't touch a Motorway

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:19

someone wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:53
The Ten Mile Map for 1956 on Sabre Maps show the route to Dover as the A259, although the same titled map from N.L.S. show it as the A20, so the change must have been around then.
Oh my life, so it does.

According to the relevant works, there was only one revision published in the 1950s (which was the 1956 revision as stated). But looking carefully at the source map for the SABRE Maps version against the NLS version shows a few subtle differences in the marginalia - the NLS's states Revision A, whereas ours has no letter code. Theirs has the copyright date of 1956, whereas ours says 1955.

There's a few other subtle differences - the A339 between Newbury and Basingstoke is shown as Trunk on the NLS's map, and not on ours. My personal copy of the map matches the NLS's.

To cut a long story short, it looks like the copy on SABRE Maps is actually one of the final proof editions from 1955...


EDIT: Our Sheet 1 is also the proof edition. Hmmm, I'd better start scanning... :wink:
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