Should junction numbers be larger?

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Having a cuppa
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 05:27
Location: North of Vice City

Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Having a cuppa » Wed Jan 20, 2021 13:35

As a British expat living in the United States, I have always preferred the British road signs and driving on the left (correct) side of the road. However, one thing I like about US signage is the exit number on highway signs is larger than the British junction numbers.

US: https://www.google.com/search?q=us+high ... qKTV8I6TeM

UK: https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads ... n_orig.jpg

Should British junction numbers be redesigned to be more prominent on motorway signage?
Last edited by Having a cuppa on Wed Jan 20, 2021 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
My car gets 90 leagues to the firkin and that's the way I like it!

User avatar
M4Simon
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 9492
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2002 22:35
Location: WGC, Herts
Contact:

Re: Should junction numbers be larger

Post by M4Simon » Wed Jan 20, 2021 14:00

Having a cuppa wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 13:35
As a British expat living in the United States, I have always preferred the British road signs and driving on the left (correct) side of the road. However, one thing I like about US signage is the exit number on highway signs is larger than the British junction numbers.

US: https://www.google.com/search?q=us+high ... qKTV8I6TeM

UK: https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads ... n_orig.jpg

Should British junction numbers be redesigned to be more prominent on motorway signage?
Hello, and welcome to SABRE.

I'd say the junction numbers are of similar size to the text on the signs, and given they have their own black panel, are easy to find and read. I don't think there is a need for them to be any bigger, though of course they could be.

Simon
Historic (1922) routes project

Please visit Rural Roads

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 9781
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Should junction numbers be larger

Post by c2R » Wed Jan 20, 2021 15:18

I'd say that they should be on consistent places on ADS fork signs and if they are to be used on flag signs at junctions then, again, this should be consistent.

If we're going to play the "Expressways" game some more with green signage, then these should also use motorway permanent font and again have consistency with location of junction numbering (yes A12, I'm particularly looking at you here!)
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps

Conekicker
Member
Posts: 2992
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Conekicker » Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21

The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

User avatar
Stevie D
Social Media Admin
Posts: 7790
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Stevie D » Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47

Conekicker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21
The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
(Of course, just because they are used, I guess that doesn't guarantee that they are allowed to be used 🤔)

Leeds Council of course does its own thing for signposting junction numbers: https://goo.gl/maps/qScT6cKZ4NLqom4V6

dhouk
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:23

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by dhouk » Wed Jan 20, 2021 23:35

One thing I do like from driving often in the US is junction numbers are a distance relative from the start. Removed the J00a or even b junctions we get when a junction has been added later in. It also helps with a quick way of working out how far until your exit or until the next exit..

User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by jgharston » Thu Jan 21, 2021 00:45

Stevie D wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47
Conekicker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21
The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
They seems to be becoming common on things like ring roads, such as the A61 around Sheffield city centre.

And of course, the long distance A/M/A/M roads such as the A1 and A90. We've even had discussions on here about how the A1 junctions should be numbered south of Blyth.

User avatar
Big L
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 5268
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Big L » Thu Jan 21, 2021 06:50

jgharston wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 00:45
Stevie D wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
They seems to be becoming common on things like ring roads, such as the A61 around Sheffield city centre.

And of course, the long distance A/M/A/M roads such as the A1 and A90. We've even had discussions on here about how the A1 junctions should be numbered south of Blyth.
There's a really useful website I found with information like this on it.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

From the SABRE Wiki: Junction numbers#Non-motorway roads with junction numbers :

Motorway junctions in Great Britain and Ireland are typically numbered (although this was not the case in the earliest days of British motorways). Some motorway strip maps produced by the AA used numbers or letters to refer to the junctions, but these were entirely unofficial. Official junction numbering began in August 1966 for most motorways in Great Britain. Junctions on some shorter motorways that "do not form parts of the continuous system" initially remained

... Read More

Conekicker
Member
Posts: 2992
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Conekicker » Thu Jan 21, 2021 09:05

Stevie D wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47
Conekicker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21
The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
(Of course, just because they are used, I guess that doesn't guarantee that they are allowed to be used 🤔)

Leeds Council of course does its own thing for signposting junction numbers: https://goo.gl/maps/qScT6cKZ4NLqom4V6
TSRGD, S12-3-7, para 2.

2. The junction number may be shown in white characters on a black patch on a directional sign with a background provided for at items 1, 2 and 3 of the Part 2 sign table provided the x-height of the junction number is 80% of the legend provided for at item 1. The patch must have a white border when placed on a blue or dark green background
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 12998
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:15

jgharston wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 00:45
Stevie D wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47
Conekicker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21
The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
They seems to be becoming common on things like ring roads, such as the A61 around Sheffield city centre.

And of course, the long distance A/M/A/M roads such as the A1 and A90. We've even had discussions on here about how the A1 junctions should be numbered south of Blyth.
They're on A4540, the Birmingham Ring Road, where they've been carefully organised so that Five Ways is J5 :) Only major junctions, whether roundabouts or traffic lights, are numbered, minor side roads (of which there are quite a few) are not.

Aren't the junctions on the Peterborough parkway system numbered somehow?
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 12998
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:18

Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 06:50
jgharston wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 00:45
Stevie D wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 22:47
And indeed they are already used on the A14 (not just the recent upgrade) and A55, as well as possibly others as well.
They seems to be becoming common on things like ring roads, such as the A61 around Sheffield city centre.

And of course, the long distance A/M/A/M roads such as the A1 and A90. We've even had discussions on here about how the A1 junctions should be numbered south of Blyth.
There's a really useful website I found with information like this on it.
I'd forgotten about that! Still surprised to find that Wolverhampton hasn't numbered its ring road junctions.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

From the SABRE Wiki: Junction numbers#Non-motorway roads with junction numbers :

Motorway junctions in Great Britain and Ireland are typically numbered (although this was not the case in the earliest days of British motorways). Some motorway strip maps produced by the AA used numbers or letters to refer to the junctions, but these were entirely unofficial. Official junction numbering began in August 1966 for most motorways in Great Britain. Junctions on some shorter motorways that "do not form parts of the continuous system" initially remained

... Read More

User avatar
Big L
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 5268
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Big L » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:34

Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 09:05
TSRGD, S12-3-7, para 2.

2. The junction number may be shown in white characters on a black patch on a directional sign with a background provided for at items 1, 2 and 3 of the Part 2 sign table provided the x-height of the junction number is 80% of the legend provided for at item 1. The patch must have a white border when placed on a blue or dark green background
So the white-on-red on the Coventry ring road aren't correct then.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 9781
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by c2R » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:44

Conekicker wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 20:21
The last I heard, should expressways go ahead, is that they will be subject to the Motorway Regs and thus will have blue background signs, not green.
There's nothing in TSRGD to stop green or white background signs carrying black background junction numbers now.
I was referring more to those that are de-facto expressways, rather than HE's presumably abandoned concept - so those that already use fork signs and junction numbering.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps

Conekicker
Member
Posts: 2992
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Conekicker » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:50

Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:34
Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 09:05
TSRGD, S12-3-7, para 2.

2. The junction number may be shown in white characters on a black patch on a directional sign with a background provided for at items 1, 2 and 3 of the Part 2 sign table provided the x-height of the junction number is 80% of the legend provided for at item 1. The patch must have a white border when placed on a blue or dark green background
So the white-on-red on the Coventry ring road aren't correct then.
Unless DfT have authorised them, yes, the signs are indeed wrong 'uns.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 8675
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by AndyB » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:58

A55 North Wales Expressway has junction numbers.

Apart from motorways, NI doesn't use them really - only sites off the top of my head are the Roundabout number signs around Craigavon. The A1 Sprucefield-Border, A4 M1-Ballygawley, A6 M22-Castledawson and Dungiven-Derry, A8 Corrs Corner-Larne and A26 Antrim-Drones roundabout all have cases for using them.

User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 3955
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Vierwielen » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:47

dhouk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 23:35
One thing I do like from driving often in the US is junction numbers are a distance relative from the start. Removed the J00a or even b junctions we get when a junction has been added later in. It also helps with a quick way of working out how far until your exit or until the next exit..
I have seen the same thing is Spain. If there are two exits associated with a particular number, the exits are JxxxA and JxxxB (not Jxx and JxxA as in the UK, for example M4:J4 and M4:J4a). A typical Spanish example is J601A and J601B see here. BTW, this junction is 601 km from the French border.

User avatar
Chris5156
Member
Posts: 14553
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Chris5156 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:07

dhouk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 23:35
One thing I do like from driving often in the US is junction numbers are a distance relative from the start. Removed the J00a or even b junctions we get when a junction has been added later in. It also helps with a quick way of working out how far until your exit or until the next exit..
Some US states do this, but some do not, and others are a real mix. In general the US is moving towards mileage-based exit numbers, and away from sequential ones, but the picture is very jumbled, and most states have exceptions. There's a good Wikipedia article listing the main outliers.

Interestingly there's a third category with just one road in it - I-19 in New Mexico has kilometre based exit numbers!

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30629
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:56

Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:50
Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:34
Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 09:05
TSRGD, S12-3-7, para 2.

2. The junction number may be shown in white characters on a black patch on a directional sign with a background provided for at items 1, 2 and 3 of the Part 2 sign table provided the x-height of the junction number is 80% of the legend provided for at item 1. The patch must have a white border when placed on a blue or dark green background
So the white-on-red on the Coventry ring road aren't correct then.
Unless DfT have authorised them, yes, the signs are indeed wrong 'uns.
The Coventry junction numbers date back to the early 90s, so they may have an authorisation that's been forgotten about but yes, they really should be updated given they technically now claim to be NCN route numbers.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

Conekicker
Member
Posts: 2992
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Conekicker » Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:07

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:56
Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:50
Big L wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:34

So the white-on-red on the Coventry ring road aren't correct then.
Unless DfT have authorised them, yes, the signs are indeed wrong 'uns.
The Coventry junction numbers date back to the early 90s, so they may have an authorisation that's been forgotten about but yes, they really should be updated given they technically now claim to be NCN route numbers.
The mindset that baffles me is that if a designer wants to do something that is non-prescribed but there's an element of what they want to do that is prescribed, why not use the prescribed bit and not go off at a tangent doing something weird?

Running the design past DfT first, for a reality check, would be a good idea as well, obviously. Allowing that too many designers these days don't even know the DfT Traffic Signs team exist of course. Nor that what they are doing is non-prescribed as well.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 30629
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: Should junction numbers be larger?

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:11

Conekicker wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:07
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:56
Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:50
Unless DfT have authorised them, yes, the signs are indeed wrong 'uns.
The Coventry junction numbers date back to the early 90s, so they may have an authorisation that's been forgotten about but yes, they really should be updated given they technically now claim to be NCN route numbers.
The mindset that baffles me is that if a designer wants to do something that is non-prescribed but there's an element of what they want to do that is prescribed, why not use the prescribed bit and not go off at a tangent doing something weird?

Running the design past DfT first, for a reality check, would be a good idea as well, obviously. Allowing that too many designers these days don't even know the DfT Traffic Signs team exist of course. Nor that what they are doing is non-prescribed as well.
Innovation bonus?
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

Post Reply