Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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tom66
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by tom66 »

In these situations, why not declassify the roundabout so that drivers that get that far can turn around on the roundabout? You could add 'No Stopping' signs to the roundabout if worried about traffic stopping there (though I dare say anyone who parks on a roundabout is a Grade-III ocean-going submersible nuclear moron.)
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by c2R »

tom66 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 08:39 In these situations, why not declassify the roundabout so that drivers that get that far can turn around on the roundabout? You could add 'No Stopping' signs to the roundabout if worried about traffic stopping there (though I dare say anyone who parks on a roundabout is a Grade-III ocean-going submersible nuclear moron.)
You could do that, it would need a statutory instrument to de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout. However, I don't think there would be a great deal of benefit to doing that.

Better would have been to ensure that the link road to the services roundabout was specialised, so could be under motorway regulations.

A more messy solution is to keep the link road as all purpose but add the restrictions in using a TRO to make it nearly a motorway in everything but name (see A14 Huntingdon to Cambridge).

But the solution they've gone with is, er, to put up some signs telling you that if you're on a bike or have a tractor then you shouldn't use the link road.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

c2R wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 08:51
tom66 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 08:39 In these situations, why not declassify the roundabout so that drivers that get that far can turn around on the roundabout? You could add 'No Stopping' signs to the roundabout if worried about traffic stopping there (though I dare say anyone who parks on a roundabout is a Grade-III ocean-going submersible nuclear moron.)
You could do that, it would need a statutory instrument to de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout. However, I don't think there would be a great deal of benefit to doing that.

Better would have been to ensure that the link road to the services roundabout was specialised, so could be under motorway regulations.

A more messy solution is to keep the link road as all purpose but add the restrictions in using a TRO to make it nearly a motorway in everything but name (see A14 Huntingdon to Cambridge).
In these situations, the best approach is to pick out the benefits and disbenefits of each case.

Yes, you could de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout, but this is pointless as all exits other than the one you're entering from are motorways, so the only possibility is a U-turn back to the first roundabout. You're also opening up the roundabout (in theory, given it is only a roundabout and either case is unlikely) to frontage development and the gas board deciding it's a great place to stick a gas main in.

The other option is to ensure that the link road is a motorway itself, giving the road all the benefits of being a Special Road, and also making clear that non-Class I and II traffic has nowhere else to go here. This is the best approach, as it's clear both legally and to a road user, and has no disbenefits bar some paperwork.

The TRO option is a terrible bodge, giving neither the benefits of a Special Road, nor the clarity of a motorway.

Basically, you're looking here at the reasons why all early short spurs which lead to a motorway at a roundabout junction (such as the M1 Luton Spur) were motorways themselves - the only benefit is allowing someone to make pointless journeys with no possible destinations.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by c2R »

Indeed - and putting themselves at risk in the process- it's not reasonable for someone to decide to ride a horse around the circulatory carriageway of the M18/M180 roundabout just because they become suddenly able to do it.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by RichardA35 »

Follow the money. HE have no interest in extending their maintenance responsibility without, at minimum, a commuted sum and greasing of palms as they would have to pass this down to the area team whichever way this area's contracts are formulated.
Once that is in your mind, have a look at how the various solutions would impact each party, their spend for maintenance (including winter), who would promote and fund any statutory instruments (de-specialising/trunking/detrunking orders as appropriate) and where the money would need to move from party to party.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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RichardA35 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:31 Follow the money. HE have no interest in extending their maintenance responsibility without, at minimum, a commuted sum and greasing of palms as they would have to pass this down to the area team whichever way this area's contracts are formulated.
Once that is in your mind, have a look at how the various solutions would impact each party, their spend for maintenance (including winter), who would promote and fund any statutory instruments (de-specialising/trunking/detrunking orders as appropriate) and where the money would need to move from party to party.
But.... it's perfectly acceptable for a local authority to manage a special road or for highways england to manage an all purpose road...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by ChrisH »

The roundabout looks like it's become some kind of Schrodinger's motorway: it is under motorway regulations if you come off the M18 or M180, but isn't under motorway regulations from the new all-purpose link road.

I agree with all the previous posters that this kind of issue shouldn't arise and seems to point to a skills gap at HE. Perhaps Steven needs to run a Zoom webinar for HE staff on the principles and benefits of Special Road status :D
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

ChrisH wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:44 The roundabout looks like it's become some kind of Schrodinger's motorway: it is under motorway regulations if you come off the M18 or M180, but isn't under motorway regulations from the new all-purpose link road.

I agree with all the previous posters that this kind of issue shouldn't arise and seems to point to a skills gap at HE. Perhaps Steven needs to run a Zoom webinar for HE staff on the principles and benefits of Special Road status :D
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I've actually tried to explain the concept of non-motorway Special Roads to a couple of HE types on more than one occasion. You know the Looney Tunes cartoons where the characters' eyes say "TILT" instead of having pupils?

Yeah, that.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by ForestChav »

Don't the blue sign and chopsticks here imply at least that you're joining a motorway?

It'd be much better with the usual rectangular sign and that's probably the most logical point to start it anyway, other than just assuming you can 360 back around the M180/M16 roundabout?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

ForestChav wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 17:56 Don't the blue sign and chopsticks here imply at least that you're joining a motorway?

It'd be much better with the usual rectangular sign and that's probably the most logical point to start it anyway, other than just assuming you can 360 back around the M180/M16 roundabout?
No, it says you are on the one side of the road, and aren't on the other. It's a bodgy confusing mess.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Conekicker »

ForestChav wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 17:56 Don't the blue sign and chopsticks here imply at least that you're joining a motorway?

It'd be much better with the usual rectangular sign and that's probably the most logical point to start it anyway, other than just assuming you can 360 back around the M180/M16 roundabout?
Sadly that sign is incorrect. The Motorway Regulations apply when you get to this sign, which is considerably further along the road:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59117 ... 8192?hl=en

Which appears questionable, as the road at that point cannot be both the M18 and the M180. Given the grade separated nature of the junction, I'd be tempted to say the roundabout is part of the M180. I'd suggest M18 either not be present on this sign or placed in brackets, as permitted by TSRGD.

Edit:

The DS should look something like this, applying "furthest first" (mostly, given the length of various destinations) and omitting mention of M62, which there is no need for at this location. M62 can be picked up on the ADS approaching the roundabout.
Link DS.pdf
(45.53 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
Also, the DS mentions Goole but not Grimsby, the opposite of the blue background ADS further on, so consistency is absent. Overall, a mess that will be with us for many years and probably never get sorted out.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by gepree68 »

Steven wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:21 The other option is to ensure that the link road is a motorway itself, giving the road all the benefits of being a Special Road, and also making clear that non-Class I and II traffic has nowhere else to go here. This is the best approach, as it's clear both legally and to a road user, and has no disbenefits bar some paperwork.
Yes this road to the M18/M180 roundabout should also be a motorway.

If they did this, and made it a special road, would they then have to paint over these double yellow lines?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by c2R »

The DYLs just add to the mess that's been created - I mean, why isn't it a clearway?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:24 The DYLs just add to the mess that's been created - I mean, why isn't it a clearway?
They don't understand clearways either. Most councils don't to be fair...

We might address this chronic skills gap one day?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by bart »

Steven wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:21 Yes, you could de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout, but this is pointless as all exits other than the one you're entering from are motorways, so the only possibility is a U-turn back to the first roundabout. You're also opening up the roundabout (in theory, given it is only a roundabout and either case is unlikely) to frontage development and the gas board deciding it's a great place to stick a gas main in.
But that's what they did with M60 J7 when the A6144(M) was downgraded; you can drive up the Carrington Spur but you have to turn around at the roundabout over the motorway (despite the fact that there are C/D carriageways to J8 which could be downgraded to function in the same way as the M1/A414 complex).
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 19:54 We might address this chronic skills gap one day?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

bart wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 23:39
Steven wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:21 Yes, you could de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout, but this is pointless as all exits other than the one you're entering from are motorways, so the only possibility is a U-turn back to the first roundabout. You're also opening up the roundabout (in theory, given it is only a roundabout and either case is unlikely) to frontage development and the gas board deciding it's a great place to stick a gas main in.
But that's what they did with M60 J7 when the A6144(M) was downgraded; you can drive up the Carrington Spur but you have to turn around at the roundabout over the motorway (despite the fact that there are C/D carriageways to J8 which could be downgraded to function in the same way as the M1/A414 complex).
Indeed, and that was equally pointless - downgrading the A6144(M) achieved the sum total of allowing the gas board to dig up the road to run a gas main down. Other utilities are also available to be used as examples.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by JohnnyMo »

Steven wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 09:21
c2R wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 08:51
You could do that, it would need a statutory instrument to de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout. However, I don't think there would be a great deal of benefit to doing that.

Better would have been to ensure that the link road to the services roundabout was specialised, so could be under motorway regulations.

A more messy solution is to keep the link road as all purpose but add the restrictions in using a TRO to make it nearly a motorway in everything but name (see A14 Huntingdon to Cambridge).
In these situations, the best approach is to pick out the benefits and disbenefits of each case.

Yes, you could de-specialise the M18/M180 roundabout, but this is pointless as all exits other than the one you're entering from are motorways, so the only possibility is a U-turn back to the first roundabout. You're also opening up the roundabout (in theory, given it is only a roundabout and either case is unlikely) to frontage development and the gas board deciding it's a great place to stick a gas main in.

The other option is to ensure that the link road is a motorway itself, giving the road all the benefits of being a Special Road, and also making clear that non-Class I and II traffic has nowhere else to go here. This is the best approach, as it's clear both legally and to a road user, and has no disbenefits bar some paperwork.

The TRO option is a terrible bodge, giving neither the benefits of a Special Road, nor the clarity of a motorway.

Basically, you're looking here at the reasons why all early short spurs which lead to a motorway at a roundabout junction (such as the M1 Luton Spur) were motorways themselves - the only benefit is allowing someone to make pointless journeys with no possible destinations.
Without knowing the paper work involved:

Motorway -- local press / greens / swampy will claim it will by 8 lanes wide
Special Road -- Not sure anyone understands these, what about learners ?
TRO as per A1 -- legally messy but Joe Public can understand
De-motorway the roundabout -- probably as much paperwork as making the road a motorway for no actual benefit.

Would the signage be different if it was a special road or a TRO ?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by orudge »

A special road would require something like this at the start of it (the AWPR is - in legal terms - a motorway, but for this amendment).
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by KeithW »

orudge wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 14:02 A special road would require something like this at the start of it (the AWPR is - in legal terms - a motorway, but for this amendment).
Which is presumably what was done here on the A1 in Scotland.
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