Impossible yellow box junction

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jervi
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Impossible yellow box junction

Post by jervi » Thu Apr 15, 2021 18:48

Occasionally I stumble across yellow box junctions that are questionable due to not seeing whether it is possible to exit the yellow box from an entry.
This is the most extreme one I've come across. In conjunction with the other road markings, its a complete mess.
Anyone else have any yellow box junctions that are impossible to see the exit?

pjr10th
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by pjr10th » Thu Apr 15, 2021 23:18

That is a bloody mess oml. Who authorised that? Who cares about making sure the give way lines are visible - let's paint a big useless yellow box. If you actually obeyed the rules somehow by knowing your exit was clear from the side road, you'd then be blocking oncoming traffic!

Also it seems the big yellow box and the double yellow lines really helped the illegal parking situation.

Everything about that GSV screams to me council doesn't give a whosit about what it's doing and just bodges anything in.

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JohnnyMo
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by JohnnyMo » Fri Apr 16, 2021 09:13

I assume the issue is large artics' turning into the road, meets a car turning right out of the road result in mutual blocking.
Store complains to council, council does something anything ( 1st parking restrictions, 2nd KEEP CLEAR 3rd Yellow Box ) to placate the store.
Results' in totally impossible road markings, but not sure how to fix it without traffic lights.
Johnny Mo

WHBM
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by WHBM » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:44

This one on Lower Thames Street/Embankment in the City of London :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5103645 ... 384!8i8192

is on a road where the traffic commonly moves at 10-15mph. It is for the fire station exit, but just beyond the box is a traffic signal with a small unboxed area before the stop line. If an HGV starts across the box, and the signal then starts to go red, there's insufficient space for it to stop compliant with the stop line without it's rear being stopped in the box. Same of course with two cars.

Now the actual legislation is, contrary to belief, not "do not stop", but "do not enter box unless your exit is clear". This is of course completely inconsistent with camera enforcement, which only captures vehicles stopped, not whether the exit was clear. So one could claim that the exit was clear when the box was entered, only then the signal changed. But I don't think you would get very far with it.

SteelCamel
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by SteelCamel » Fri Apr 16, 2021 21:40

JohnnyMo wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 09:13
I assume the issue is large artics' turning into the road, meets a car turning right out of the road result in mutual blocking.
Store complains to council, council does something anything ( 1st parking restrictions, 2nd KEEP CLEAR 3rd Yellow Box ) to placate the store.
Results' in totally impossible road markings, but not sure how to fix it without traffic lights.
Making Regent Hill one-way would sort that issue - but then the departing lorries would be forced onto Western Road (and because of the bus gate, would be forced to stay on Western Road for some distance).

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Fenlander » Fri Apr 16, 2021 22:23

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/17, ... e9428b8745

Can’t turn right (it’s a one way street) but can’t see round the corner to the end of the box to turn left either.

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Stevie D
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Stevie D » Fri Apr 16, 2021 23:02

Fenlander wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 22:23
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/17, ... e9428b8745

Can’t turn right (it’s a one way street) but can’t see round the corner to the end of the box to turn left either.
Plus, even if you had x-ray vision and could see through buildings ... what's the point of it?
Box junctions are used to prevent queueing traffic from blocking cross traffic (so that it doesn't become bluddy furious traffic 😉). Using it to break up two flows of traffic that are both heading in the same direction is unnecessary – there's a risk there that if the traffic lights harmonise with the next set, that you could end up with one flow getting the lion's share of movement if their greens coincided with traffic being able to move freely, and the other flow only getting one or two cars out each cycle if their greens coincided with coming up against a red light. At least if they're allowed to fill the space then the two flows should move more evenly.

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traffic-light-man
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by traffic-light-man » Sun Apr 18, 2021 08:18

Stevie D wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 23:02
Fenlander wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 22:23
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/17, ... e9428b8745

Can’t turn right (it’s a one way street) but can’t see round the corner to the end of the box to turn left either.
Plus, even if you had x-ray vision and could see through buildings ... what's the point of it?
Box junctions are used to prevent queueing traffic from blocking cross traffic (so that it doesn't become bluddy furious traffic 😉). Using it to break up two flows of traffic that are both heading in the same direction is unnecessary – there's a risk there that if the traffic lights harmonise with the next set, that you could end up with one flow getting the lion's share of movement if their greens coincided with traffic being able to move freely, and the other flow only getting one or two cars out each cycle if their greens coincided with coming up against a red light. At least if they're allowed to fill the space then the two flows should move more evenly.
It's presumably to keep that funny little bit of shuttle working clear should anything happen on one of the exits. It's basically a T-junction bolted on to a shuttle working, with the yellow box covering the extents of it.

Agreed, it's not very usable for the reasons mentioned, but I think I see the intention.

Bus lane or not, this approach with only one signal head is also a big no-no.

Edit: Though having said that, this approach to a downstream junction has no signal head at all, which is even scarier. Presumably the intention is to turn the whole street in to shuttle working when a bus is using the contraflow facilities, but it's all seems just a bit botched!
Simon :driving:

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by SteelCamel » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:58

The whole thing seems a bodge to squeeze a bus lane in where there isn't room. Note that it's so narrow that the bus can't actually stop anywhere on this section, so the passengers don't gain from the bus going this way.
It looks to me like sending the buses via South St and the A16 bridge wouldn't add much if any time to the journey. Then all the lights and the box junction could be removed.

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Fenlander » Sun Apr 18, 2021 21:48

It’s very much a bodge to send the buses the wrong way through the one way normal traffic.

They could go the correct way out to the A16 but while there used to be 4 lanes out to it there’s only 3 now due to the creation of a cycle lane and the bus would be stuck in the queue that backs up because of that decision, it backs up across the single lane stretch that precedes it blocking the 2 lane (left turn) traffic too.

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Bristol » Sun Apr 18, 2021 22:05

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4251482 ... a=!3m1!1e3

This roundabout on the A4174 has box junctions where you can't see the end of one if you're standing at the previous lights. Why you need a box on a roundabout that's also controlled with signals, I don't understand.

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Stevie D
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Stevie D » Sun Apr 18, 2021 23:20

Bristol wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 22:05
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4251482 ... a=!3m1!1e3

This roundabout on the A4174 has box junctions where you can't see the end of one if you're standing at the previous lights. Why you need a box on a roundabout that's also controlled with signals, I don't understand.
On a roundabout, you are only allowed to use box junctions where the entry is signal-controlled. So in the example you gave, one of the 4 box junctions on the roundabout is unlawful as the entry from Bath Road A4 doesn't have signals (and equally wrongly has double-dashed give way lines rather than single-dashed "give way to traffic on the roundabout" lines).

It's every bit as important – if not more so – on signalised roundabouts that traffic going round the roundabout doesn't block cross-traffic. The archetypal example of this is Hopgrove, on the A64 north-east of York. It used to be that at busy times, traffic heading east on the A64 would be queueing across the roundabout (as the dual-carriageway ends and so traffic backs up badly there), meaning that all the traffic coming from Monks Cross and A1237 and wanting to turn right (west) onto the A64 just couldn't, because all the eastbound traffic just sat blocking the junction. Just putting a box junction in would have been decidedly suboptimal, as if eastbound traffic on the A64 obeyed it then it would be very easy for traffic coming from York/A1237 and turning left to sneak round as soon as the traffic inched forwards, making it very difficult for A64 traffic to get through without blocking the junction. Since adding traffic lights and box junctions, the traffic joining the roundabout and turning west now has to wait for only a tiny fraction of the time it used to, because it is no longer being blocked by somebody else's queue all the time.

Jonathan24
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Jonathan24 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 23:47

Bristol wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 22:05
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4251482 ... a=!3m1!1e3

This roundabout on the A4174 has box junctions where you can't see the end of one if you're standing at the previous lights. Why you need a box on a roundabout that's also controlled with signals, I don't understand.
Is it just me or are those box junctions very districting? Given it's a roundabout, the pattern of the box lines is never going to follow the lanes around the roundabout but it obscures the white lines (at least on the Google view) and seems to me that it could cause accidental lane drift.

Bristol
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Bristol » Mon Apr 19, 2021 21:32

It's actually quite fine to drive around, just that you can't see the end of the yellow box from the start, especially in the innermost lane. The white lines do stand out quite well.

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by fras » Mon Apr 19, 2021 21:59

jervi wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 18:48
Occasionally I stumble across yellow box junctions that are questionable due to not seeing whether it is possible to exit the yellow box from an entry.
This is the most extreme one I've come across. In conjunction with the other road markings, its a complete mess.
Anyone else have any yellow box junctions that are impossible to see the exit?
It's actually illegal, because a YBJ must only cover the area of the junction between two roads. Appeals against PCNs for stopping in these have been won in the past on this aspect. These were London PCNs because the enforcment powers in the Transport Management Act to allow councils outside London to enforce them have never been introduced. London has totally separate legislation.

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by SteelCamel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:53

fras wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 21:59
It's actually illegal, because a YBJ must only cover the area of the junction between two roads. Appeals against PCNs for stopping in these have been won in the past on this aspect. These were London PCNs because the enforcment powers in the Transport Management Act to allow councils outside London to enforce them have never been introduced. London has totally separate legislation.
Does "road" include access to premises? There are quite a few painted outside e.g Fire Stations, where there's no other road, just the exit from the station.
This one has always seemed a bit excessive - while you can see to the far end, I don't see why there's a need for a box in front of the parking areas. A much shorter box just in front of the station itself would still allow the fire engines out.

fras
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by fras » Tue Apr 20, 2021 18:22

SteelCamel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:53
fras wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 21:59
It's actually illegal, because a YBJ must only cover the area of the junction between two roads. Appeals against PCNs for stopping in these have been won in the past on this aspect. These were London PCNs because the enforcment powers in the Transport Management Act to allow councils outside London to enforce them have never been introduced. London has totally separate legislation.
Does "road" include access to premises? There are quite a few painted outside e.g Fire Stations, where there's no other road, just the exit from the station.
This one has always seemed a bit excessive - while you can see to the far end, I don't see why there's a need for a box in front of the parking areas. A much shorter box just in front of the station itself would still allow the fire engines out.
As I understand it, YBJs outside fire stations are subject to special authorisation, but nowadays my be included in the law. There are many YBJs around the country that are not enforceable as they are not legally installed.
Try this one
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.57015 ... 6656?hl=en

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solocle
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by solocle » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:42


Skipsy
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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Skipsy » Wed Apr 28, 2021 19:10

Not impossible for shorter vehicles, but this one on the A219 could easily catch any long vehicle:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4136815 ... 384!8i8192
The setup itself is weird, with 2 sets of traffic lights next to each other, when surely only 1 is required?
They both always go to red, of course timed in a way that the first set go red first followed by the second

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Re: Impossible yellow box junction

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 20:53

Skipsy wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 19:10
Not impossible for shorter vehicles, but this one on the A219 could easily catch any long vehicle:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4136815 ... 384!8i8192
The setup itself is weird, with 2 sets of traffic lights next to each other, when surely only 1 is required?
They both always go to red, of course timed in a way that the first set go red first followed by the second
There's a cycle crossing between the two sets of lights, so presumably if you only had the furthest set, stopped traffic would block the cycle route, and if you only had the nearest set you'd lose some queueing space.

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