TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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thatapanydude
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TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by thatapanydude »

Following on from the Westminster 20mph disaster, TfL are ploughing ahead with further wide spread cuts across red route speed limits in outer London too. I have created a new thread as I suspect there will be more on the way.

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/lowering-speed-limits

Key Highlights:
- A10 from Stamford Hill to the A406 will be 20mph and 30mph rather than 30mph and 40mph
- A107 from Clapton to Hackney, A13 Aldgate to Limehouse and A23 Norbury to Thornton Heath down to 20mph.

My views on this is that the A13 is the least concerning as you have the parallel A1203 which is much better to use to Canary Wharf, however section 6.1 96) of the DfT Speed Limit Guidance doc suggests that 20 mph limits should only be introduced where speeds are at 24mph or less, I would guess that the A13 especially does not fit into this case - usually when Blackwall, Rotherhithe and Tower Bridge are working well its a 30mph straight run. Moreover, why hasn't 30mph average speed cameras been used if speed is the problem or localised 20mph school limits at "St Mary & St Michael Catholic Primary School". This part of the A13 unlike the A11 is mostly free of urban shopping areas of high pedestrian footfall and ought to be kept at 30mph!

The A107 again I can see the reason for 20mph going through Stamford Hill which is very busy with pedestrians and children often walking about.

The A23 I admit I have never used from Brixton to the M25. However considering the distance of 20mph from C.London to Croydon will be nearly 8 miles it will push journeys from the A23/M25 to London probably onto the A3 or A2/A13. Again if speed is the problem which does this section of A23 not have a single speed camera? The first port of call needs to be enforcement of the 30mph limit before moving to 20mph !!

Finally the A10 scheme in Enfield is the worst of the lot. Section 6.3 108 and 109 says:

- Roads suitable for 40 mph are generally higher-quality suburban roads or those on the outskirts of urban areas where there is little development.
- They should have good width and layout, parking and waiting restrictions in operation, and buildings set back from the road.
- These roads should, wherever possible, cater for the needs of non-motorised road users through segregation of road space, and have adequate footways and crossing places.

Here is the A10 section in question with a few pics. Figure A, Figure B and Figure C. Yes while I am aware that typically the section is busy with queues towards the A406 it is clear that the section of A10 in question meets the requirements for 40mph as set out in section 6.3 and is in line with the other suburban 40mph sections of A20 or A316 which are 40mph.

Finally unlike the Westminster 20mph consultation there does not seem to be any survey or anything to consult on rather TfL are offering just to comment on the scheme.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by trickstat »

If there are cameras, I can see the A10 changes pushing a few extra boy racer types onto the A1055, especially outside of 'office' hours as there are a lot of business units along there.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 13:20Following on from the Westminster 20mph disaster, TfL are ploughing ahead with further wide spread cuts across red route speed limits in outer London too. I have created a new thread as I suspect there will be more on the way.
I drive quite regularly in Westminster and am yet to see signs of a disaster unfolding :roll:
The A23 I admit I have never used from Brixton to the M25. However considering the distance of 20mph from C.London to Croydon will be nearly 8 miles it will push journeys from the A23/M25 to London probably onto the A3 or A2/A13. Again if speed is the problem which does this section of A23 not have a single speed camera? The first port of call needs to be enforcement of the 30mph limit before moving to 20mph !!
I don't think this 20 limit is anything to worry about. This bit of the A23 is effectively one extended High Street and if you manage to hit 30 along there at anything other than the small hours of the morning you are doing well. The volume of traffic on this road that's genuinely en route from outside the M25 to Central London must be close to zero - anyone with a desire to get from the M23 to Westminster before they die of natural causes will already be on the A2 or A3.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by thatapanydude »

trickstat wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 15:06 If there are cameras, I can see the A10 changes pushing a few extra boy racer types onto the A1055, especially outside of 'office' hours as there are a lot of business units along there.
Possibly, though being single carriageway speeds are probably about even with the A10 - admittedly not used this section past the IKEA northwards so not too sure on it suitability. In the grand scheme of things traffic will end up just breaking from the camera's and still plod on at 40mph - though its the principle of unnecessary lower speed limits which I am against.
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 21:31
I drive quite regularly in Westminster and am yet to see signs of a disaster unfolding :roll:
Well that is because the plans in Westminster have not yet come into force - bar the 20mph scheme on Park Lane northbound, which as I am sure you are aware is not as free-flowing or fast as before.
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 21:31 I don't think this 20 limit is anything to worry about. This bit of the A23 is effectively one extended High Street and if you manage to hit 30 along there at anything other than the small hours of the morning you are doing well. The volume of traffic on this road that's genuinely en route from outside the M25 to Central London must be close to zero - anyone with a desire to get from the M23 to Westminster before they die of natural causes will already be on the A2 or A3.
Interesting from a quick street view it does seem like more urban than suburban and plausible for 20mph. However given at present there are no speed cameras on the section - it can be inferred that it has not been a speeding/accident hotspot, so I would argue why if its necessary for 20mph when there hasn't been any schemes to enforce the 30mph limit.

It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by Herned »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23 Interesting from a quick street view it does seem like more urban than suburban and plausible for 20mph. However given at present there are no speed cameras on the section - it can be inferred that it has not been a speeding/accident hotspot, so I would argue why if its necessary for 20mph when there hasn't been any schemes to enforce the 30mph limit.

It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
This is about far more than speeding, it is about changing the status of the different users of the street network. Pedestrians and bus passengers make up far more of the users of a lot of the A23, so it is entirely right that they have the priority. This notion that nothing should get in the way of people on their own in cars is changing, you don't magically gain more rights to use a street once you get in your car, even though that is exactly how traffic engineers have treated urban locations for the past 100 years.

And I wouldn't drive it for the sake of it, Chris is not exaggerating by a lot when he says you will die of natural causes before reaching the M23. You will almost certainly be suffering profound regret before you get to Streatham Common
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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Herned wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 23:23And I wouldn't drive it for the sake of it, Chris is not exaggerating by a lot when he says you will die of natural causes before reaching the M23. You will almost certainly be suffering profound regret before you get to Streatham Common
It's fundamentally not a main road for Central London to M25 journeys. It is a main road, yes, and one you might use to get between, say, Streatham and Croydon, or between Norbury and Purley. Those are the journeys (and much shorter hops than that) making up most of the traffic.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by trickstat »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23
trickstat wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 15:06 If there are cameras, I can see the A10 changes pushing a few extra boy racer types onto the A1055, especially outside of 'office' hours as there are a lot of business units along there.
Possibly, though being single carriageway speeds are probably about even with the A10 - admittedly not used this section past the IKEA northwards so not too sure on it suitability. In the grand scheme of things traffic will end up just breaking from the camera's and still plod on at 40mph - though its the principle of unnecessary lower speed limits which I am against.
It is far from suitable, but you do get some boy racers on it.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by fras »

Herned wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 23:23
thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23 Interesting from a quick street view it does seem like more urban than suburban and plausible for 20mph. However given at present there are no speed cameras on the section - it can be inferred that it has not been a speeding/accident hotspot, so I would argue why if its necessary for 20mph when there hasn't been any schemes to enforce the 30mph limit.

It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
This is about far more than speeding, it is about changing the status of the different users of the street network. Pedestrians and bus passengers make up far more of the users of a lot of the A23, so it is entirely right that they have the priority. This notion that nothing should get in the way of people on their own in cars is changing, you don't magically gain more rights to use a street once you get in your car, even though that is exactly how traffic engineers have treated urban locations for the past 100 years.

And I wouldn't drive it for the sake of it, Chris is not exaggerating by a lot when he says you will die of natural causes before reaching the M23. You will almost certainly be suffering profound regret before you get to Streatham Common
So how do 20 mph limits improve things for buses ? They must obey the limits too, so journey times must lengthen, surely ? And what if 20 mph has no effect ? Do we move to 10 mph ? The plain fact is the traffic levels are far higher than the road network can carry. This was predicted in the Buchanan Report of 1962. And now, with LTNs, even more traffic is being forced onto the main roads. Can we even call them main roads any more ?
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by trickstat »

fras wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:08
Herned wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 23:23
thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23 Interesting from a quick street view it does seem like more urban than suburban and plausible for 20mph. However given at present there are no speed cameras on the section - it can be inferred that it has not been a speeding/accident hotspot, so I would argue why if its necessary for 20mph when there hasn't been any schemes to enforce the 30mph limit.

It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
This is about far more than speeding, it is about changing the status of the different users of the street network. Pedestrians and bus passengers make up far more of the users of a lot of the A23, so it is entirely right that they have the priority. This notion that nothing should get in the way of people on their own in cars is changing, you don't magically gain more rights to use a street once you get in your car, even though that is exactly how traffic engineers have treated urban locations for the past 100 years.

And I wouldn't drive it for the sake of it, Chris is not exaggerating by a lot when he says you will die of natural causes before reaching the M23. You will almost certainly be suffering profound regret before you get to Streatham Common
So how do 20 mph limits improve things for buses ? They must obey the limits too, so journey times must lengthen, surely ?
I suppose at certain stops, if traffic is doing no more than 20, it will be easier for a bus to pull out.

From the couple of times, I've driven on it for more than a mile or so, the A23 from Brixton south through Streatham is quite hilly and I doubt whether buses ever travel along there at much above 20 anyway, so it will little difference to them directly. One thing I also noticed that the road from just south of the A205 must be one of the longest continual shopping streets in the country as there seem to be shops alongside the road for about a mile and a half.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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With buses it's not about top speed but average speed, so lower speed limits are not necessarily a concern - waiting to get back out at bus stops is what increases journey time hence the removal of many lay-bys in favour of inline stops.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 21:31 I don't think this 20 limit is anything to worry about. This bit of the A23 is effectively one extended High Street and if you manage to hit 30 along there at anything other than the small hours of the morning you are doing well.
Yebbut... setting a limit based on what one can do at the peak congestion is a flawed method.

While I absolutely support lower limits on residential roads, IMHO this is going to far. And quite simply, a 20 limit on an A-road should never be appropriate - if there is justification for the road being 20, it should not be an A road.

And these borough wide changes are utterly ridiculous.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23 It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
A few weeks back, I was in Brighton and had to get to Brixton (with gear, so train was not an option) - so did the whole route on the A23 to the A3 - I skipped the final stretch to avoid the CC... and I did the return from the A3 to the M23 at Horley too.

I'd not driven most of the stretch from Pease Pottage to Horley, or any fromCroydon to the centre before... so it's now ticked off, and will be in no rush to repeat.

On Friday, I did the A24 all the way from Worthing to Clapham... again, I'll be in no hurry to do that inside the M25 again...
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by fras »

I came across this YouTube video on public transport in East London.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIiHkkfXj8
It's quite long, and I skipped through it, but just take a look at what the streets looked like in the absence of cars and goods vehicles, (the railways carried almost everything then).

Can we ever get back to this sort of uncrowded state ? No, I don't think so. The population of the UK in 1911 was 42 million. It is now 66 million. Transport demand in modern economies (modern = from about 1900 onwards), inevitably follows the population increases.
What is the answer ? Just suppressing things with speed limits and traffic bans doesn't seem to be the answer to me, but what that answer is I don't really know. How do you get people back on bikes like we see in the old video photos, and crowding onto buses, trains, trams etc ?
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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You provide safe cycling infrastructure, places to store bikes, etc.

Something like 15% of all city land is given over to car parking. Imagine what we could do with that if we were more creative - and yes, some of that land could be multi storey or underground with human priority facilities on top like houses and shops.

The fact people care more about their metal box than actually making cities work for people is the problem. It's ideological and borne of the same mentality as the yanks with their firearms. They know they cause social harm but won't do anything about it.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 16:00Something like 15% of all city land is given over to car parking. Imagine what we could do with that if we were more creative - and yes, some of that land could be multi storey or underground with human priority facilities on top like houses and shops.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 16:00 You provide safe cycling infrastructure, places to store bikes, etc.

Something like 15% of all city land is given over to car parking. Imagine what we could do with that if we were more creative - and yes, some of that land could be multi storey or underground with human priority facilities on top like houses and shops.

The fact people care more about their metal box than actually making cities work for people is the problem. It's ideological and borne of the same mentality as the yanks with their firearms. They know they cause social harm but won't do anything about it.
Like this, then ?
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/bicyc ... nmark.html
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

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Bryn666 wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 23:08 With buses it's not about top speed but average speed, so lower speed limits are not necessarily a concern - waiting to get back out at bus stops is what increases journey time hence the removal of many lay-bys in favour of inline stops.
I'd love to meet this mythical bus driver who is afraid to pull out of a lay-by into the traffic. Around here it's indicator on and out they come, rightly deducing that the size of their vehicle will decide the issue of who gives way.
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by Scratchwood »

fras wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:08
Herned wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 23:23
thatapanydude wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 22:23 Interesting from a quick street view it does seem like more urban than suburban and plausible for 20mph. However given at present there are no speed cameras on the section - it can be inferred that it has not been a speeding/accident hotspot, so I would argue why if its necessary for 20mph when there hasn't been any schemes to enforce the 30mph limit.

It is on my to-do list to travel on this section of A23 from C.London to Horley though the thought of it isn't the most appealing.
This is about far more than speeding, it is about changing the status of the different users of the street network. Pedestrians and bus passengers make up far more of the users of a lot of the A23, so it is entirely right that they have the priority. This notion that nothing should get in the way of people on their own in cars is changing, you don't magically gain more rights to use a street once you get in your car, even though that is exactly how traffic engineers have treated urban locations for the past 100 years.

And I wouldn't drive it for the sake of it, Chris is not exaggerating by a lot when he says you will die of natural causes before reaching the M23. You will almost certainly be suffering profound regret before you get to Streatham Common
So how do 20 mph limits improve things for buses ? They must obey the limits too, so journey times must lengthen, surely ? And what if 20 mph has no effect ? Do we move to 10 mph ? The plain fact is the traffic levels are far higher than the road network can carry. This was predicted in the Buchanan Report of 1962. And now, with LTNs, even more traffic is being forced onto the main roads. Can we even call them main roads any more ?
My impression is that many bus drivers pay as much heed to some 20mph limits as the car drivers do...
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by jnty »

Scratchwood wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:37 My impression is that many bus drivers pay as much heed to some 20mph limits as the car drivers do...
As far as I understand it, automatic speed limiters have been compulsory on new London buses for some time. So that should become a thing of the past within a few years.

Of course, new cars should be getting similar tech as standard fairly soon too, I think..?
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Re: TfL Vision Zero: Lower Speed Limits

Post by aj444 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 19:19 I'd love to meet this mythical bus driver who is afraid to pull out of a lay-by into the traffic. Around here it's indicator on and out they come, rightly deducing that the size of their vehicle will decide the issue of who gives way.
yup, because the alternative is to sit in the layby all day....
Around here there is an extra rule in the highway code - If you see a bus at any point in the road ahead, you must get past it as soon as possible - even if it costs you your life.
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