Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

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Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Other motorways that appear on M25 signs and gantries are usually signed in the form of "Place (Mx)" or "Place & (Mx)". Amongst this list, the M20 is signed for "Dartford" further away and "Maidstone" as you get closer to it or the M26. Example here.

Now, considering the M20 is the main motorway to Dover and the Channel Tunnel, why isn't it signed as "Dover (M20)"? It takes up less space on the signs and a large proportion of traffic wanting the M20 will be heading to Dover. Foreign lorry drivers will know of Dover but not necessarily Maidstone.

"But Maidstone is the first primary destination!" I hear you say, "So it must be the one mentioned!" True, but the M40 is always signed as "Oxford (M40)" and not, say "High Wycombe (M40)". So there doesn't seem to be any consistency amongst them.

As an aside, why do some places get an "&" and others don't? :P
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Bryn666 »

You're making the fundamental error of presuming there is logic to our sign system! :wink:

Dover has always historically been signed out of London via the A2/M2 as this was the better route way back when. It's only with the arrival of the Channel Tunnel and extension of the A20 expressway to Dover itself that the M20/A20 remotely became viable for ferries traffic.

Getting a coherent signing strategy around London should be one of the DfT's big traffic priorities, but they have a lot bigger fish to fry. The fact we expect people unfamiliar with the capital to navigate around its primary ring road using Dartford, Gatwick, Heathrow, and Watford as control points is absolutely bonkers in the first place. This would in turn fix the issues on the M20 you mention.

Anyway, the real question is why is Bristol not decently signed on the M5 until you are basically at Almondsbury...
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 You're making the fundamental error of presuming there is logic to our sign system! :wink:

Dover has always historically been signed out of London via the A2/M2 as this was the better route way back when. It's only with the arrival of the Channel Tunnel and extension of the A20 expressway to Dover itself that the M20/A20 remotely became viable for ferries traffic.
True, and true! Haha. But the fast road to Dover has been around for nearly 30 years, and the signs have been changed and updated numerous times..... oh, wait, I'm falling for my error again! :-D
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Chris5156 »

Gareth Thomas wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:10As an aside, why do some places get an "&" and others don't? :P
This is part of the M25 signage strategy developed in the 1980s, at a time when the circuit was about to be completed and ways of directing traffic around it were being considered.

The chosen approach is that directions are based on four control destinations close to the M25, selected because they are located roughly to the north, south, east and west of London, and because their locations are recognised and understood by most people. They are Heathrow, Gatwick, Dartford and Watford. Those four places are used to orientate traffic as it orbits London and one or two of them should appear on most forward direction signs.

Beyond that, each of the radial motorways and major roads then has a standard way of being referenced, in order to make signposting consistent and concise, list as many radials as possible, and keep those four control destinations visible. The four control destinations are paired with their nearest major radial motorway:
- Heathrow (M4)
- Gatwick (M23)
- Watford & (M1)
- Dartford & (M20)

That is done to save space - listing "Heathrow (M4)" takes up less space than signposting Heathrow separately to, say, "Slough (M4)", and doesn't risk causing too much confusion.

"Dartford & (M20)" makes sense in that context - it's a pairing of a place and a motorway that are actually a little way apart for the sake of convenience. You could argue that it ought to be "Dartford (A2)" and the M20 should always be signposted separately, but for whatever reason that's not the decision that was made. "Watford & (M1)" also looks a bit odd at first, since the M1 does serve Watford, so you could argue that it ought to just be Watford (M1) - until you realise that, from the M25, you can't turn on to the M1 towards Watford.

Other radial routes similarly have their own standardised pairings when they appear as forward destinations:
- Stansted (M11)
- Guildford (A3)
- Basingstoke (M3)
- Leatherhead (A243)
- Hertford (A10)

In some cases, this system has been diluted over the years as people come along and put up new signs with their own bright ideas about what ought to go on them, which is how you get signs on the SW quadrant that just point towards Heathrow (M3, M4, M40). Similarly there's now a mix of signs for either Birmingham (M40) or Oxford (M40).
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by rhyds »

Is the Birmingham/Oxford issue possibly down to that old habit of outdated signs being replaced like-for-like?
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Steven »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 Anyway, the real question is why is Bristol not decently signed on the M5 until you are basically at Almondsbury...
The M5 does have hyper-local signage between Bristol and Birmingham for some bizarre reason. It's almost as bad as M6 Toll for that.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Chris5156 »

rhyds wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 13:14 Is the Birmingham/Oxford issue possibly down to that old habit of outdated signs being replaced like-for-like?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by rhyds »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 14:33
rhyds wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 13:14 Is the Birmingham/Oxford issue possibly down to that old habit of outdated signs being replaced like-for-like?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
There's a sign just outside Llanelltyd with the A487/A470 which was probably first put up back in the early 80s when the Dolgellau bypass went in. Problem is, it was replaced a few years back with a brand new, shiny sign with the same outdated A487/A470 heading.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Bryn666 »

rhyds wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 14:58
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 14:33
rhyds wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 13:14 Is the Birmingham/Oxford issue possibly down to that old habit of outdated signs being replaced like-for-like?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
There's a sign just outside Llanelltyd with the A487/A470 which was probably first put up back in the early 80s when the Dolgellau bypass went in. Problem is, it was replaced a few years back with a brand new, shiny sign with the same outdated A487/A470 heading.
This is because uninterested project managers in big consultancy firms see road signs as a grunt job for an entry level technician with no expertise or understanding of signage rules to do. The results are fairly obvious to see.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Vierwielen »

There is one very simple additional sign that could be added - E15 (also E13 and E30 on other parts of the M25).

Please don't tell Boris that I suggested this, otherwise he might make me wash my mouth out with soap.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Big L »

Steven wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 13:19
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:24 Anyway, the real question is why is Bristol not decently signed on the M5 until you are basically at Almondsbury...
The M5 does have hyper-local signage between Bristol and Birmingham for some bizarre reason. It's almost as bad as M6 Toll for that.
Last time I went that way, the temporary signs at M6J8 are still there, so no indication that you might want the M5 for anywhere past West Brom or parts of Birmingham. Worcester, Gloucester, Bristol, Exeter? None of those.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by WHBM »

For the last 12 months or more Heathrow, the Central Terminals 2 and 3, has had no signage from the M4 out of London at all. Just this at the half mile mark :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4935878 ... 384!8i8192

If we can't get this right, what chance the rest.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 17:34 For the last 12 months or more Heathrow, the Central Terminals 2 and 3, has had no signage from the M4 out of London at all. Just this at the half mile mark :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4935878 ... 384!8i8192

If we can't get this right, what chance the rest.
https://goo.gl/maps/rfjCJhvgWgcMNFsL6 at least it's got a massive concrete block awaiting the future sign. How have we ended up with foundation design this ugly, and critically, above ground?
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 18:01
https://goo.gl/maps/rfjCJhvgWgcMNFsL6 at least it's got a massive concrete block awaiting the future sign. How have we ended up with foundation design this ugly, and critically, above ground?
That was January; it's December next week, still no progress with signage. That block now has the mast and framing erected, but no signboard yet.

Like you, I cannot believe how such sharp-edged blocks are placed so close to where the carriageway will ultimately be, or why they have to be so bad. The size of the block seems to get ever larger with each project, presumably there's some "mine's bigger than yours" competition at the design consultancies.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Big L »

Next time I'm up that way I'll take a pic of the sign partway up the M6J19 northbound off-slip. Big blocks of concrete, with 'passively safe' posts set in. It was unfinished when I was last there.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by MotorwayGuy »

There seems to a reluctance to change how anything is signed along the A2/M2 and A20/M20 Corridors. These signs were replaced in 2008 and still refer to the "A102(M)" and are still in place. Also installed at this time was this abomination, which states no destinations for the anti-clockwise M25, no mention of the A282 and signs the mainline destination as "London, Bexleyheath".
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Chris Bertram »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 00:46 There seems to a reluctance to change how anything is signed along the A2/M2 and A20/M20 Corridors. These signs were replaced in 2008 and still refer to the "A102(M)" and are still in place. Also installed at this time was this abomination, which states no destinations for the anti-clockwise M25, no mention of the A282 and signs the mainline destination as "London, Bexleyheath".
Um, Dartford Crossing A282 is right there on the leftmost panel.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by MotorwayGuy »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:04
MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 00:46 There seems to a reluctance to change how anything is signed along the A2/M2 and A20/M20 Corridors. These signs were replaced in 2008 and still refer to the "A102(M)" and are still in place. Also installed at this time was this abomination, which states no destinations for the anti-clockwise M25, no mention of the A282 and signs the mainline destination as "London, Bexleyheath".
Um, Dartford Crossing A282 is right there on the leftmost panel.
Oops, sorry it was late. I got it mixed up, it's the M25(S) that has no signed destinations. The old signage here actually had "Gatwick" as a destination for the M25(S) but no mention of City Airport.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by Phil »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 18:01
WHBM wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 17:34 For the last 12 months or more Heathrow, the Central Terminals 2 and 3, has had no signage from the M4 out of London at all. Just this at the half mile mark :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4935878 ... 384!8i8192

If we can't get this right, what chance the rest.
https://goo.gl/maps/rfjCJhvgWgcMNFsL6 at least it's got a massive concrete block awaiting the future sign. How have we ended up with foundation design this ugly, and critically, above ground?
Because NH / HE have a fetish for long Cantilever gantries interoperating walkways! On made up ground like embankments you need a huge heavy base (or deep piles) to stop such a structure failing in high winds or simply through its own weight.

A portal style gantry spanning the carriageway (or even one spanning the whole motorway) is inherently far more stable and the foundations can be smaller / shallower as a result.

Failing that, you do what the French do and make them very simple structures just supporting signs and not having walkways etc on them.
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Re: Why is the M20 signed as "Dartford/Maidstone (M20)" on the M25 and not "Dover (M20)"?

Post by frediculous_biggs »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 00:46 There seems to a reluctance to change how anything is signed along the A2/M2 and A20/M20 Corridors. These signs were replaced in 2008 and still refer to the "A102(M)" and are still in place. Also installed at this time was this abomination, which states no destinations for the anti-clockwise M25, no mention of the A282 and signs the mainline destination as "London, Bexleyheath".
The L on ExCeL should be capitalised too. But yes, Gatwick would be a useful addition to the M25(S) panel
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