Actuated traffic light control in Russia

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WhiteBlueRed
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Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Here in Russia, most traffic lights run on fixed-time, and due to that, many of them have countdown timers. This, at first glance, seems good for the drivers, but not so much in general, as that type of control is not flexible. Countdown timers by themselves may actually provoke drivers to speed up to "beat the light", a study in my city came to the conclusion.
However things are moving, and a few years ago, actuation was first installed at a traffic light in Zelenograd, and was well-received.
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Since then, more and more traffic lights in Moscow have been upgraded with actuated technology to allow them to better adapt to varying traffic conditions. There's one drawback with that control though, and that is no more countdowns. This is because the stage duration is determined in real-time, as opposed to it being predetermined, so you can't be sure that it'll remain green next second and not change.
Sadly though, this type of control is mostly restricted to the European part of Russia, mostly in and around Moscow. There are only a handful of actuated traffic light junctions outside it, one in St Petersburg, and a few in Chelyabinsk. My Siberian city still uses fixed-time.
The benefits are evident, stages may be skipped if nobody's waiting, and the light won't change if nobody's there.
Something interesting, is that some upgraded junctions have part-time vehicle actuation, and at other times run fixed-time. The countdowns are retained, and during the actuated period, it instead displays "АУ" (Адаптивное Управление) "Adaptive Control".
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What are other countries in the world that prefer fixed-time over vehicle actuation?
linuxrocks
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by linuxrocks »

I think the countdown drivers can see is a good idea. The only countdowns I've seen is for pedestrians, supposedly to tell them how long they have to cross the road. If the timer says 30, it seems to be 15 seconds before it is zero.
WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

My local junction has pedestrian countdowns, used to have a countdown on the traffic light. When the signals were refurbished, the countdown was moved to the pedestrian signals. A bit inconvenient, but drivers still can use it, by looking at the pedestrian signal on their right, as the junction is set up in a way that there's atleast 1 pedestrian crossing green with right-turners conflicting.
pjr10th
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by pjr10th »

linuxrocks wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:52 I think the countdown drivers can see is a good idea. The only countdowns I've seen is for pedestrians, supposedly to tell them how long they have to cross the road. If the timer says 30, it seems to be 15 seconds before it is zero.
The issue with British-style countdown clocks is that they are almost universally used in place of a blackout period on farside signals. Therefore, they're practically useless except to pedestrians arriving during that blackout who want to risk bolting it across the road.

I wish we'd adopt a Continental-style countdown which is for red signals and shows the maximum amount of time left until it will be your turn. For vehicles, we'd have to be sure it wouldn't enrage drivers to see a countdown e.g. >90s long. I think the UK (and other countries who use starting amber like Germany) should replace the starting amber with a countdown clock. So, the second the lights are 100% sure how long it will be until green, the amber starts counting down to 00.
WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

In Russia, the countdown is displayed throughout the entire time pedestrians have green. Both the countdown and the green man flash for at least 3 seconds before changing to a red man.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by traffic-light-man »

pjr10th wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 16:12The issue with British-style countdown clocks is that they are almost universally used in place of a blackout period on farside signals. Therefore, they're practically useless except to pedestrians arriving during that blackout who want to risk bolting it across the road.
They are only used in place of a blackout period with farside signals, and indeed it's the blackout that makes them work. TfL (and presumably other authorities) typically shorten the green time and when using the PCaTS because of there's more information available to the crossing users, so in actual fact it often makes the whole cycle time shorter than the original set of minimums allowed.
pjr10th wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 16:12I wish we'd adopt a Continental-style countdown which is for red signals and shows the maximum amount of time left until it will be your turn. For vehicles, we'd have to be sure it wouldn't enrage drivers to see a countdown e.g. >90s long. I think the UK (and other countries who use starting amber like Germany) should replace the starting amber with a countdown clock. So, the second the lights are 100% sure how long it will be until green, the amber starts counting down to 00.
Red countdowns in actuated systems are notoriously difficult to do, particularly with numbers. That's why the Dutch have largely moved to non-numeric countdown timers, and even still you often see them simply switch off part way through their countdown.

I'd like to see how a starting amber replacement countdown would work on a MOVA site - You'd primarily only ever be able to countdown the intergreen period if it was making a traffic-traffic stage change. I'm not sure that's a game changing idea for a replacement to the starting amber.
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WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

In Kaluga, there's a button-actuated traffic light, but for cars.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WHBM »

Los Angeles installed pedestrian countdowns on a wide scale some years ago, but the way they are sited and timed makes them visible to drivers on the parallel street, who can use them as a countdown indicator for driving through the junction. I suspect it was an unintended consequence, but a pretty obvious one.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by FosseWay »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 20:13 In Kaluga, there's a button-actuated traffic light, but for cars.
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Interesting... and unusual. How common are such things for cars? If they are unusual, I can imagine that many drivers will simply not see the sign or button, or if they do, and read it, will think it applies to pedestrians or cyclists, because that is what experience tells them buttons like this are for.

The sign says, freely translated "Attention! For activation of the green signal, press the button." At the very least, I'd expect an explicit instruction to vehicle drivers to push the button. Also, I can't imagine being forced to open your window to press the button is especially welcome in the depths of winter!
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WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 19:48 Interesting... and unusual. How common are such things for cars?
These things are very rare. I actually think this is the only intersection in the country where drivers have to press a button to get a green light.
Of course, an inductive loop would've done the same job much better, but I'm guessing they instead installed a button to save costs.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by Octaviadriver »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 23:42
FosseWay wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 19:48 Interesting... and unusual. How common are such things for cars?
These things are very rare. I actually think this is the only intersection in the country where drivers have to press a button to get a green light.
Of course, an inductive loop would've done the same job much better, but I'm guessing they instead installed a button to save costs.
Maybe an inductive loop wouldn't work in bad weather when it'd be covered by snow and ice?
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Inductive loops work in any weather. It's only other kinds of detection, such as video cameras and microwave detectors, that work less effectively in certain weather conditions.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by Octaviadriver »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 09:21 Inductive loops work in any weather. It's only other kinds of detection, such as video cameras and microwave detectors, that work less effectively in certain weather conditions.
Спасибо. I didn't know this. Even as an OAP I can learn new things every day!
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c2R
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by c2R »

linuxrocks wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:52 I think the countdown drivers can see is a good idea.
My experience of their use in Ireland is that countdowns for drivers are a terrible idea. I've recently encountered them at temporary roadworks on the N56 in Donegal, and two local drivers knew with 40s remaining there couldn't be any other cars coming, so overtook myself and other stationary vehicles to go through the red light.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by FosseWay »

c2R wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 15:52 My experience of their use in Ireland is that countdowns for drivers are a terrible idea. I've recently encountered them at temporary roadworks on the N56 in Donegal, and two local drivers knew with 40s remaining there couldn't be any other cars coming, so overtook myself and other stationary vehicles to go through the red light.
If they knew that there wouldn't be any cars coming, then on any objective analysis of the risk, rather than of legality, they didn't do anything wrong. The problem is that they probably didn't know; they supposed, thought or presumed on the basis of past experience.

I've lost count of the times I've sat waiting at a red light while cycling, or stood at a red man as a pedestrian, for no traffic to have appeared that I would have conflicted with if I'd gone on red. This is fundamentally the problem. People's risk assessment is often pretty dodgy, but their capacity for learning from experience, especially when it gives them an advantage to do so, is huge. Rather than trying to force an override of that capacity (which is about as doomed to failure as Canute and the waves), surely it would be better to reinforce it by ensuring that people's past experience equates red lights with conflicting traffic, and therefore danger (or at least embarrassing standoffs). But that means giving green when it's safe to go, not when the current cycle reaches a green phase.
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WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 20:13 In Kaluga, there's a button-actuated traffic light, but for cars.
Image
This is where it is located. As it turns out, there's also a pedestrian crossing parallel to it, which makes sense, until you realise that the U-turners conflict with it.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Actuated traffic lights aren't even the peak of Russian traffic engineering.
Since May 2022, Moscow has begun experimenting with "eco traffic lights".
These are traffic lights equipped with CO2 sensors, allowing it to measure emission levels in the vicinity of the traffic light.
If the emission level exceeds a threshold value, and the minimum stage duration is met, the traffic light changes to the pedestrian stage.
The intent is to reduce pedestrian exposure to vehicle emissions by giving them a green man more often when there's more emissions.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by tom66 »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 05:57 Actuated traffic lights aren't even the peak of Russian traffic engineering.
Since May 2022, Moscow has begun experimenting with "eco traffic lights".
These are traffic lights equipped with CO2 sensors, allowing it to measure emission levels in the vicinity of the traffic light.
If the emission level exceeds a threshold value, and the minimum stage duration is met, the traffic light changes to the pedestrian stage.
The intent is to reduce pedestrian exposure to vehicle emissions by giving them a green man more often when there's more emissions.
Interesting idea, but wouldn't NOx or VOC or sulfur dioxide make more sense? In an outside environment, pedestrians are not particularly harmed by CO2.
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Re: Actuated traffic light control in Russia

Post by jnty »

tom66 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 16:03
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 05:57 Actuated traffic lights aren't even the peak of Russian traffic engineering.
Since May 2022, Moscow has begun experimenting with "eco traffic lights".
These are traffic lights equipped with CO2 sensors, allowing it to measure emission levels in the vicinity of the traffic light.
If the emission level exceeds a threshold value, and the minimum stage duration is met, the traffic light changes to the pedestrian stage.
The intent is to reduce pedestrian exposure to vehicle emissions by giving them a green man more often when there's more emissions.
Interesting idea, but wouldn't NOx or VOC or sulfur dioxide make more sense? In an outside environment, pedestrians are not particularly harmed by CO2.
I suppose excess CO2 might be a reasonable proxy for the harmful stuff, but yes I'd agree.
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