M621 (was M1) Leeds

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 08:09
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2016 20:03 It is very sudden but the signs are a lot better than they used to be!
When the M1 was extended I designed new signs for the M621. A "do minimum" scheme and a "total replacement". No prize for guessing which one happened. :(

Some of the really old signs still exist on there.
At least the original old blue bordered local direction signs aren't still on it...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 15:33
jackal wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 15:15
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 14:01

Or a more rational description is it encourages use of the facility because Leeds city centre is no place for thousands of cars.
But is anyone really going to park and ride because they can access it say, 20 seconds quicker (rather than just freeflowing to the next lights along)? And does that tiny and speculative benefit really justify holding a much larger volume of traffic at superfluous lights, pumping CO2 into the air pointlessly?
They're not superfluous lights though, unless you subscribe to the outdated model that only cars matter. This route has cyclists and other road users that high speed merges are effectively a death sentence for, and potentially there is now a new walking route from the P&R to all the employment sites on the A639 that will need factoring in. The signals here will also increase overall capacity because there are new movements from the M621 to A639 that were not there before, you had to undertake a long loop of the roundabout and slot into gaps in high speed traffic.

"Traffic lights increase CO2" is a canard; cars remaining on the M621 causes more CO2, which is what all these P&Rs are trying to address.
And it's still quite a maze on a bike...

1:05:15
User avatar
Osthagen
Member
Posts: 3342
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 15:01
Location: Mercia

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Osthagen »

They need to make it accessible from the M1 South at Rothwell. When heading from Edinburgh or N Yorks to S or W Leeds, I always use the M1-A639-M621 route. The reason I imagine it wasn't completed as part of the M1 extension in 1999 is because it would direct long-distance westbound traffic for the M62 (and vice-versa northeastbound traffic to the M1) through Leeds.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Owain »

Osthagen wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 17:44 They need to make it accessible from the M1 South at Rothwell. When heading from Edinburgh or N Yorks to S or W Leeds, I always use the M1-A639-M621 route. The reason I imagine it wasn't completed as part of the M1 extension in 1999 is because it would direct long-distance westbound traffic for the M62 (and vice-versa northeastbound traffic to the M1) through Leeds.
I'd imagine they didn't do it because they didn't think it necessary, and therefore not worth the cost. You're supposed to use the A63, which I've never seen busy, and which plugs into the A61 very close to both the M621 and the A58(M).

I live in Leeds West and I would never dream of using the A639 to bridge the gap. If I'm coming down from Scotland I'd either exit the A1(M) and drive right through the city on the A64-A58(M), or I'd go all the way round the urban area on the M1-M62 and use the fully dualled A653-A6120 to get home.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16909
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Chris5156 »

Owain wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 09:20
Osthagen wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 17:44 They need to make it accessible from the M1 South at Rothwell. When heading from Edinburgh or N Yorks to S or W Leeds, I always use the M1-A639-M621 route. The reason I imagine it wasn't completed as part of the M1 extension in 1999 is because it would direct long-distance westbound traffic for the M62 (and vice-versa northeastbound traffic to the M1) through Leeds.
I'd imagine they didn't do it because they didn't think it necessary, and therefore not worth the cost. You're supposed to use the A63, which I've never seen busy, and which plugs into the A61 very close to both the M621 and the A58(M).

I live in Leeds West and I would never dream of using the A639 to bridge the gap. If I'm coming down from Scotland I'd either exit the A1(M) and drive right through the city on the A64-A58(M), or I'd go all the way round the urban area on the M1-M62 and use the fully dualled A653-A6120 to get home.
Before the new bit of A63 opened there was a period of about ten years where a lot of journeys were made a bit quicker by going M1-A639-M621. I think the popularity of it caught the designers of the M1 unawares because the A639’s junction with the M1 was a very stingy dumbbell that went through several capacity upgrades in the first few years after it opened. But now the need is not so great.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:08 Before the new bit of A63 opened there was a period of about ten years where a lot of journeys were made a bit quicker by going M1-A639-M621. I think the popularity of it caught the designers of the M1 unawares because the A639’s junction with the M1 was a very stingy dumbbell that went through several capacity upgrades in the first few years after it opened. But now the need is not so great.
Over the last 40 years the optimum route has changed a number of times, in the mid 1980's the fastest route from Wembley was up the M1 all the way, the A1 was avoided because of the delays around Hatfield, however that was a problem at busy times especially bank holidays because of the congestion between South Mimms and the M45

So then we tried the A5 but that got horribly congested through Dunstable but I found a back route past Whipsnade

Then the M11/A14 opened up to Alconbury etc etc

I definitely recall the old M1 terminus at Holbeck and the plans for the never built Leeds Urban Motorway. By the time the new A63 section opened my journeys to Leeds were infrequent.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Owain »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:50
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:08 Before the new bit of A63 opened there was a period of about ten years where a lot of journeys were made a bit quicker by going M1-A639-M621. I think the popularity of it caught the designers of the M1 unawares because the A639’s junction with the M1 was a very stingy dumbbell that went through several capacity upgrades in the first few years after it opened. But now the need is not so great.
Over the last 40 years the optimum route has changed a number of times, in the mid 1980's the fastest route from Wembley was up the M1 all the way, the A1 was avoided because of the delays around Hatfield, however that was a problem at busy times especially bank holidays because of the congestion between South Mimms and the M45

So then we tried the A5 but that got horribly congested through Dunstable but I found a back route past Whipsnade

Then the M11/A14 opened up to Alconbury etc etc

I definitely recall the old M1 terminus at Holbeck and the plans for the never built Leeds Urban Motorway. By the time the new A63 section opened my journeys to Leeds were infrequent.
The A63 conversation was actually about accessing Leeds from the north.

Seeing as you mention it, though, that road probably does provide some relief for traffic coming from the south too, as the M621 and A61 are thoroughly blocked up between 7 and 9am.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
NICK 647063
Member
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 17:48
Location: Leeds

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by NICK 647063 »

Owain wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 21:18
KeithW wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:50
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:08 Before the new bit of A63 opened there was a period of about ten years where a lot of journeys were made a bit quicker by going M1-A639-M621. I think the popularity of it caught the designers of the M1 unawares because the A639’s junction with the M1 was a very stingy dumbbell that went through several capacity upgrades in the first few years after it opened. But now the need is not so great.
Over the last 40 years the optimum route has changed a number of times, in the mid 1980's the fastest route from Wembley was up the M1 all the way, the A1 was avoided because of the delays around Hatfield, however that was a problem at busy times especially bank holidays because of the congestion between South Mimms and the M45

So then we tried the A5 but that got horribly congested through Dunstable but I found a back route past Whipsnade

Then the M11/A14 opened up to Alconbury etc etc

I definitely recall the old M1 terminus at Holbeck and the plans for the never built Leeds Urban Motorway. By the time the new A63 section opened my journeys to Leeds were infrequent.
The A63 conversation was actually about accessing Leeds from the north.

Seeing as you mention it, though, that road probably does provide some relief for traffic coming from the south too, as the M621 and A61 are thoroughly blocked up between 7 and 9am.
It’s also interesting heading south on the A1(M) at J44 A64 traffic for Elland Road is signed off through Leeds as they’re aware of the poor M1,A639,M621 link.

As for the A63 a large chunk actually use it to access the M1 south I’ve noticed, as do I if I’m in east leeds It’s quicker than using east street A61 and onto M621.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:08 Before the new bit of A63 opened there was a period of about ten years where a lot of journeys were made a bit quicker by going M1-A639-M621. I think the popularity of it caught the designers of the M1 unawares because the A639’s junction with the M1 was a very stingy dumbbell that went through several capacity upgrades in the first few years after it opened. But now the need is not so great.
I've done that a few times. From a car park near the station it was much easier to get straight on the motorway than navigate the Inner Ring Road or City Centre Loop to get to the A58 or A64. Even with the A63 it might still be easier.
KILLER KNIGHT
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 14:59

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by KILLER KNIGHT »

jackal wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:49 This scheme is rumbling on and is supposed to finish in 2022-23. It's based on the lesser of the three options (option A), though seems to have been watered down further since the 2018 PRA by dropping one of the proposed SLTs at J2. The one SLT they are putting in is useful, and the proposed widening of the ridiculous one lane section is essential. Even so it seems a missed opportunity, with lots of low hanging fruit left on the tree - the more ambitious option C was far more popular in consultation, and much of the M621 could do with ALR, really. As mentioned above I don't really agree with closing J2A westbound when a barrier or even just paint could be used to eliminate weaving with J3.

General arrangement plans: https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/ro ... ul2019.pdf
Scheme page (including various detailed reports): https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/ ... ns-1-to-7/

There have also been big changes at M621 J7, where Stourton Park and Ride recently opened. The junction now has a heavily signalised and rather eccentric layout (it's on OSM/Sabre Maps but not Google Maps). You fear the worst...
That’s an example of these fools not giving much to the North. As somebody from the West Midlands, even I can confirm that this is true.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by c2R »

Missed this piece of legislation the other month disapplying reg 12 of the motorways traffic (england and wales) regs: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/802 - with a requirement for a post opening review.

I don't recall this being specifically signed, which should be interesting as to how main line traffic would necessarily know to expect HGVs in lane 3.... other than the slip road being in the centre I guess...


And then this other one to replace the previous one because it wasn't fully drafted :roll:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... tents/made
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:37 Missed this piece of legislation the other month disapplying reg 12 of the motorways traffic (england and wales) regs: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/802 - with a requirement for a post opening review.

I don't recall this being specifically signed, which should be interesting as to how main line traffic would necessarily know to expect HGVs in lane 3.... other than the slip road being in the centre I guess...
Historically yellow signs approaching J4 used to say "HGVs may use any lane" with a corresponding "HGVs may use any lane ENDS" sign.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TYe9VPzjoaqyxrQYA

Presumably similar warnings will be placed but there's nothing on the DfT authorisations database - there is something for the pedestrian refuges though:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-5144.pdf
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19171
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Steven »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:43 Presumably similar warnings will be placed but there's nothing on the DfT authorisations database - there is something for the pedestrian refuges though:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-5144.pdf
What on earth is "Leeds C (S)" and "Leeds C (N & E)" meant to mean?

Is it trying to say the various parts of Leeds city centre, in which case, why doesn't it say "City Centre (S)" then?
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bryn666 »

Steven wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:54
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:43 Presumably similar warnings will be placed but there's nothing on the DfT authorisations database - there is something for the pedestrian refuges though:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-5144.pdf
What on earth is "Leeds C (S)" and "Leeds C (N & E)" meant to mean?

Is it trying to say the various parts of Leeds city centre, in which case, why doesn't it say "City Centre (S)" then?
That'll be those sign design experts again...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:59
Steven wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:54
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:43 Presumably similar warnings will be placed but there's nothing on the DfT authorisations database - there is something for the pedestrian refuges though:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-5144.pdf
What on earth is "Leeds C (S)" and "Leeds C (N & E)" meant to mean?

Is it trying to say the various parts of Leeds city centre, in which case, why doesn't it say "City Centre (S)" then?
That'll be those sign design experts again...
Presumably the same guys who gave us the "A660(T)", "A58M", and - briefly, until I posted it on SABRE(!) - the "M621(M)".
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Bomag
Member
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 23:26

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bomag »

Steven wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:54
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:43 Presumably similar warnings will be placed but there's nothing on the DfT authorisations database - there is something for the pedestrian refuges though:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-5144.pdf
What on earth is "Leeds C (S)" and "Leeds C (N & E)" meant to mean?

Is it trying to say the various parts of Leeds city centre, in which case, why doesn't it say "City Centre (S)" then?
There was a policy, derived from Leeds MDC not to use 'city centre'. Partly derived from the confusion in west Leeds / east Bradford / Pudsey which centre you are pointing to.

With all the work on the LHA network in the centre of Leeds, perhaps 'Leeds - don't bother' would be better.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19171
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Steven »

Bomag wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 13:50 There was a policy, derived from Leeds MDC not to use 'city centre'. Partly derived from the confusion in west Leeds / east Bradford / Pudsey which centre you are pointing to.
Which is fine, but Manchester / Salford seem to cope with "Manchester city centre".

"Leeds C (S)" is just meaningless. At first I thought it might be "Leeds Council (S)" or some other nonsense like that.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bryn666 »

Steven wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 14:21
Bomag wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 13:50 There was a policy, derived from Leeds MDC not to use 'city centre'. Partly derived from the confusion in west Leeds / east Bradford / Pudsey which centre you are pointing to.
Which is fine, but Manchester / Salford seem to cope with "Manchester city centre".

"Leeds C (S)" is just meaningless. At first I thought it might be "Leeds Council (S)" or some other nonsense like that.
The original signs just had the city centre signposted off onto the A653, of course. I'm fairly sure nobody was confusing this with Bradford given the location is in South Leeds (unless these are the same drivers that apparently don't know where Birmingham is). Trying to split it into numerous routes is fine but the wording is dire. In any case it should be "Leeds (C)", you'd expect National Highways to be able to follow their own guidance wouldn't you...

"Central Leeds" is an approved way of writing a city centre. It's there in LTN 1/94 (remember that?):

The naming of the town centre may be shortened by the use of the legend "Central", e.g. "Central Guildford". The style "Guildford Centre" should not be used where there is a risk of confusion with a leisure or shopping centre.

So maybe "Central Leeds (S)" would've worked better.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Owain »

Maybe we should adopt the target symbol to point road users in the direction of town and city centres?
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M621 (was M1) Leeds

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 20:23 Maybe we should adopt the target symbol to point road users in the direction of town and city centres?
Too European. We'd have to go to great lengths to design our own unintuitive version then quietly adopt the European one 15 years later like we did with motorway symbols.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Post Reply