A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

I've seen this long list before, but not the column on the right, which indicates why 11 of the 21 options were dropped before the February 2016 options workshop:

Wisley potentially feasible options - Copy.JPG

https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... report.pdf
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Bryn666
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 18:51
SouthWest Philip wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 17:07In addition to pointless and expensive enlargement of the roundabout, I cannot see how widening the M25 to four lanes each way through the junction helps. So much traffic joins and leaves here that eliminating the lane drops/lane gains will surely make things worse?
Jackal's observation notwithstanding, it is certainly an interesting design choice from an organisation that is feverishly inserting new and barely-justified lane drops on other motorways nearby.
The latest one of these is the offset lane gain/drop at M56 J6 which will cause no end of morning peak shenanigans unless they've worked out that a quarter of traffic on the eastbound M56 is going to Hale/the SW side of M'cr Airport. I don't buy it from personal experience.

Jackal's table also shows that the stack and whirlpool were deemed feasible to build but have been rejected because, why exactly?
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RichardA35
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by RichardA35 »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 Jackal's table also shows that the stack and whirlpool were deemed feasible to build but have been rejected because, why exactly?
Because of the structural flaw in the process that decides the scheme budget before any design work has been carried out, so eliminating any better performing options on cost grounds?
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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RichardA35 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:00
Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 Jackal's table also shows that the stack and whirlpool were deemed feasible to build but have been rejected because, why exactly?
Because of the structural flaw in the process that decides the scheme budget before any design work has been carried out, so eliminating any better performing options on cost grounds?
Some of the options have "no - cost" written against them, the stack and the whirlpool do not.

Although I'm not sure how a cloverleaf; which has nil structural content, can cost more than a stack even accounting for SE England land prices. I think the scheme is just a total waste of RIS funds myself, and I think it demonstrates the lack of apparent accountability NH have.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Truvelo »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:05 Although I'm not sure how a cloverleaf; which has nil structural content, can cost more than a stack even accounting for SE England land prices.
Maybe it's a typo in the table and should be capacity instead. It would have far more capacity issues than many of the other designs even if the weaving area was on its own C/D roads.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25. I can imagine it would be expensive building it while keeping the roundabout open though.

20.jpg
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25.
That's shocking. The eastbound M25 would probably have locked up with traffic trying to leave and join the M3.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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Truvelo wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 14:12
jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25.
That's shocking. The eastbound M25 would probably have locked up with traffic trying to leave and join the M3.
I'm not even sure why it was designed as an option to even discount, surely everyone knows traditional unmodified cloverleaves are completely obsolete as a design now?
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Truvelo »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 15:20
Truvelo wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 14:12
jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25.
That's shocking. The eastbound M25 would probably have locked up with traffic trying to leave and join the M3.
I'm not even sure why it was designed as an option to even discount, surely everyone knows traditional unmodified cloverleaves are completely obsolete as a design now?
Maybe it was deliberate so the option would be thrown out at an early stage :twisted:
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by A320Driver »

Can we campaign to NH to bin this scheme and put the funds towards a longer tunnel at Stonehenge?

I do wonder what they smoke in the design office at NH…a dumbbell between Wisley and Ockham? I mean, seriously?
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by c2R »

Probably not now, the DCO has hit legislation.gov.uk

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... tents/made
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by JonB2028 »

jackal wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 14:45 If I were SABRE king my first act would be to ban all use of figurative "bound" directions when talking about junctions, which causes endless confusion.
When referring to origins and destinatons of traffic I can see that makes sense but if you had your wish how would you refer to individual sliproads at a junction - rather than saying M25 clockwise (or westbound) exit slip, say the southeastern slip road or east facing exit slip or what?
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

JonB2028 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:12
jackal wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 14:45 If I were SABRE king my first act would be to ban all use of figurative "bound" directions when talking about junctions, which causes endless confusion.
When referring to origins and destinatons of traffic I can see that makes sense but if you had your wish how would you refer to individual sliproads at a junction - rather than saying M25 clockwise (or westbound) exit slip, say the southeastern slip road or east facing exit slip or what?
Nothing wrong with saying "M25 clockwise (or westbound) exit slip".

The problem only arises when people use "south" confusingly as shorthand for "southbound" (or the same for other compass points). Even then it only really arises if they use it when talking about where a movement is coming from.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Vierwielen »

wrinkly wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:59
JonB2028 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:12
jackal wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 14:45 If I were SABRE king my first act would be to ban all use of figurative "bound" directions when talking about junctions, which causes endless confusion.
When referring to origins and destinatons of traffic I can see that makes sense but if you had your wish how would you refer to individual sliproads at a junction - rather than saying M25 clockwise (or westbound) exit slip, say the southeastern slip road or east facing exit slip or what?
Nothing wrong with saying "M25 clockwise (or westbound) exit slip".

The problem only arises when people use "south" confusingly as shorthand for "southbound" (or the same for other compass points). Even then it only really arises if they use it when talking about where a movement is coming from.
... such as a north wind.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

The project will start construction in September. Some prep work started last month.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-62213820
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by phil gollin »

jackal wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 08:55 The project will start construction in September. Some prep work started last month.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-62213820
.

"... National Highways say the work is set for completion by 2025. ..."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

Tonight there is the first of a series of closures on the A3 through the junction.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... y-24801364
https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... nction-10/
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Vierwielen »

jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25. I can imagine it would be expensive building it while keeping the roundabout open though.


20.jpg
As there is currently sufficient headroom on the M25 for a roundabout, the resultant gradients on the loops have been high. Also, almost every clover-leaf that I have seen in Europe has C/D lanes. Retro-fitting C/D lanes would have neccessitated rebuilding the A3 bridges.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 15:07
jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25. I can imagine it would be expensive building it while keeping the roundabout open though.


20.jpg
As there is currently sufficient headroom on the M25 for a roundabout, the resultant gradients on the loops have been high.
All the freeflow designs basically left the roundabout level there unused, so the cloverleaf was on three levels, the stack on five, and the whirlpool simply spun around the existing junction. It's quite bizarre really as you could obviously get at least one freeflow movement through just going round two sides of the roundabout, with a respectable 75m radius. It seems they wanted to use the roundabout as a massively oversized NMU facility.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by A320Driver »

jackal wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 15:45
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 15:07
jackal wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 13:59 The cloverleaf design didn't even have C/D lanes on the M25. I can imagine it would be expensive building it while keeping the roundabout open though.


20.jpg
As there is currently sufficient headroom on the M25 for a roundabout, the resultant gradients on the loops have been high.
All the freeflow designs basically left the roundabout level there unused, so the cloverleaf was on three levels, the stack on five, and the whirlpool simply spun around the existing junction. It's quite bizarre really as you could obviously get at least one freeflow movement through just going round two sides of the roundabout, with a respectable 75m radius. It seems they wanted to use the roundabout as a massively oversized NMU facility.
Yet, as I’ve said before and also told the [then]HE people at the public consultation, I’ve never seen any horses or pedestrians using the junction and literally one or two cyclists, in my regular use of the junction. There is of course the local road to Effingham but even at minor inconvenience to myself, could be perfectly served via Ockham and the B2039.

They would be better off allocating the £250 million to a longer tunnel at Stonehenge.
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