Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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betweenmways
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by betweenmways »

The majority of local keyboard warriors in the severnside area agree that the main through route should have remained as-is (30) and have no problem with all other roads being 20.

Severnside is different to a town as the B4245 is 5 miles between Magor and the Chepstow end of Caldicot - most of this was 30mph and so is now mostly 20mph. The 2 areas between the villages are now 40, with a now-400m bit of NSL between Undy and Rogiet (due to massive 40mph buffers). Thus travelling from one end to the other used to take 10 mins, now 15 mins. In reality, depending on the start and end destination, it could be possible to go up onto the A48 but is not practical in most situations.

In terms of non-compliance to 30 at 97%, I'm not sure how reducing to 20 will then increase compliance to 20 - though I expect that compliance to 30 in a 20 zone will be higher - perhaps that is the planned outcome in reality, as there is very little enforcement.

In terms of being a pedestrian, it can now be more difficult to cross a main road - people are driving anywhere between 18 and 40mph, there are longer queues of backed-up traffic behind the person going 18, and teaching young children to cross the road when they have lower distance/speed perception can be tricky. Perhaps there should now be more zebra crossings, which wouldn't have been sensible on through roads?

On the other hand, I guess it would be complicated/confusing to mark out all side roads as 20 to the through road. There are also a couple of places on the through road where 20mph is probably sensible.

Wales have made some interesting decisions with regards to justifications I think. And then locally, Monmouthshire (who signed up to this 'trial' scheme) are not particularly well though through in my opinion with decisions regarding roads (in the south at least, other areas might vary):
> Putting up advertising signs and then having very little interest for companies pay for advertising - leaving old faded 'shop in monmouthshire' signs, and old posts.
> 'Shared use' area in Caldicot which is/was a disaster and even now they reinstated a marked zebra crossing but relocated to right next to an area used for loading so visibility of pedestrians is awful (a single zig and zag line from the crossing, so <5m?)
> Trialling a road closure in the centre of Caldicot - the only road through the town that didn't pass by a school.
> All the new signs down the A466 wye link (subject to another thread on red route clearways); nobody ever parked on the carriageway, there's plenty of laybys, it seems a bit pointless.
> Having a 200m stretch of NSL between M48 and Thornwell because of the implementation of the red route, and this stub being 'left over', so it's the only NSL in the Chepstow area (probably).
> Before the red route was implemented, the highbeech roundabout was uniquely 40mph, roads leading to/from it were 30mph, and the wye link was NSL, then 50.
But I'm sure anyone can come up with interesting examples in their area, and the above is far far from unique.

I think these 20mph 'trial' schemes are here to stay though. I think the hope is usually that the initial scepticism dies down. But without enforcement, the majority will do what they've always done (though perhaps a little slower).
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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betweenmways wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:49
In terms of non-compliance to 30 at 97%, I'm not sure how reducing to 20 will then increase compliance to 20 - though I expect that compliance to 30 in a 20 zone will be higher - perhaps that is the planned outcome in reality, as there is very little enforcement.
And that hits nail on the head. A traffic officer said to me they do not enforce 20mphs, although the Met do, but you get a greater number of vehicles travelling at 30 mph or under then when it is 30mph. So they have worked and kept speeds lower.

Me personally never stick to 20mph on a main road and do 30mph.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Owain »

A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 15:13
betweenmways wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:49
In terms of non-compliance to 30 at 97%, I'm not sure how reducing to 20 will then increase compliance to 20 - though I expect that compliance to 30 in a 20 zone will be higher - perhaps that is the planned outcome in reality, as there is very little enforcement.
And that hits nail on the head. A traffic officer said to me they do not enforce 20mphs, although the Met do, but you get a greater number of vehicles travelling at 30 mph or under then when it is 30mph. So they have worked and kept speeds lower.

Me personally never stick to 20mph on a main road and do 30mph.
When they introduced the blanket 20mph zones in Bath seven or eight years ago, it seemed pretty obvious to me that the rationale was to increase the number of vehicles sticking to 30.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 15:30
A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 15:13
betweenmways wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:49
In terms of non-compliance to 30 at 97%, I'm not sure how reducing to 20 will then increase compliance to 20 - though I expect that compliance to 30 in a 20 zone will be higher - perhaps that is the planned outcome in reality, as there is very little enforcement.
And that hits nail on the head. A traffic officer said to me they do not enforce 20mphs, although the Met do, but you get a greater number of vehicles travelling at 30 mph or under then when it is 30mph. So they have worked and kept speeds lower.

Me personally never stick to 20mph on a main road and do 30mph.
When they introduced the blanket 20mph zones in Bath seven or eight years ago, it seemed pretty obvious to me that the rationale was to increase the number of vehicles sticking to 30.
If we actually funded local roads properly we could re-engineer towns and villages so 20 is actually the speed people do. The rest of Europe manages, because they understand what "investment" is.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by trickstat »

A303Chris wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 15:13
betweenmways wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:49
In terms of non-compliance to 30 at 97%, I'm not sure how reducing to 20 will then increase compliance to 20 - though I expect that compliance to 30 in a 20 zone will be higher - perhaps that is the planned outcome in reality, as there is very little enforcement.
And that hits nail on the head. A traffic officer said to me they do not enforce 20mphs, although the Met do, but you get a greater number of vehicles travelling at 30 mph or under then when it is 30mph. So they have worked and kept speeds lower.

Me personally never stick to 20mph on a main road and do 30mph.
There's an S2 road in Stevenage that was subject to some discussion in the '90s about raising it's limit from 30 to 40, a speed which doesn't seem unreasonable for most of its length. It was decided to keep it at 30 with the main objection from those local to the road being that many cars that drove down it at 40 anyway and these would do 50 if the limit was raised to 40.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by RJDG14 »

I am against universal 20 limits in residential areas - I think it is something that should be decided at a local level by residents.

I've noticed in Bath that almost all streets seem to have a speed limit that is lower than you might otherwise see in most areas - all minor residential streets are 20, most less heavily built up major routes are generally 30, and many of the rural roads in the area have speed limits of 40 or 50. In Swindon, which hasn't rolled out widespread speed limit cuts, most residential streets (unless residents choose to make their street 20) are 30, less built up major routes are generally 40 and most rural roads nearby are 60/NSL (with the exception of the A420 to Oxford which is 50 most of the way, though most of it falls into the Oxfordshire jurisdiction and not Swindon/Wiltshire). A decade or two ago, the speed limits across Bath were the same as those found in Swindon.

While I am not a supporter of the Tories, their general opposition to universal 20mph residential zones is one of the few things I support them on. The 20 signs in cities that have rolled 20 zones out en-masse seem to be one of the most notable examples of street clutter that I can think of.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by RJDG14 »

Owain wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 16:14
Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 16:06
gchree wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 15:22 Scotland has largely done this without much controversy
Are there stats on compliance? Or are the limits quietly ignored and unenforced?
After they brought them in across Bath, the only thing that enforced compliance was congestion. When there was no congestion, there was no compliance.
I think some areas of Bath have seen traffic calming measures installed to encourage people to stick to the 20 limit, and there are some electronic "20mph - slow down" signs, but I've never seen anybody out on the streets enforcing the limit.

I have a feeling part of Bath's justification for lowering the city's speed limits was to reduce pollution, though I haven't seen a particularly noticeable change in Bath's air quality since the change was made. The city could have cut pollution levels by building the Warminster spur from the Batheaston bypass which should have ended the constant congestion on the A4 London Road.
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SteveA30
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by SteveA30 »

Well it's coming....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62020427

It started in Portsmouth and is spreading nationwide, more will follow.....
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by RJDG14 »

Something I noticed when in Wales the other week was that most areas around schools had 24/7 20 limits, and in most cases the limit was set quite far back from where the gates were, typically by several hundred metres, which made me wonder in numerous cases why fairly major through routes without much dense housing had 20 limits until I saw the school. Where I live in England most roads near schools have "20 when lights flash" signs but under my local council's policy, these are only advisory limits and are not enforceable (unless the road happens to be in a 20 zone anyway).

While this is not a political thread, I am curious if Labour run councils in England are more likely to have adopted default 20mph restrictions than Tory run ones? Most of the places I can think of which have adopted widespread 20mph restrictions are under the control of Labour, the Lib-Dems, the Greens or one of the Scottish/Welsh nationalist parties, while 20mph zones in most of the Tory controlled areas that I can think of are generally limited to council estates, town centres and specific private residential streets upon request of the residents. Swindon (which has not adopted widespread 20mph limits) has been under Tory control (at the council level) since about 2004 and I think some of the opposition councillors have suggested a more widespread 20mph rollout but the town's Tory controlled cabinet turned the suggestion down.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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RJDG14 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 22:24 Something I noticed when in Wales the other week was that most areas around schools had 24/7 20 limits, and in most cases the limit was set quite far back from where the gates were, typically by several hundred metres, which made me wonder in numerous cases why fairly major through routes without much dense housing had 20 limits until I saw the school. Where I live in England most roads near schools have "20 when lights flash" signs but under my local council's policy, these are only advisory limits and are not enforceable (unless the road happens to be in a 20 zone anyway).

While this is not a political thread, I am curious if Labour run councils in England are more likely to have adopted default 20mph restrictions than Tory run ones? Most of the places I can think of which have adopted widespread 20mph restrictions are under the control of Labour, the Lib-Dems, the Greens or one of the Scottish/Welsh nationalist parties, while 20mph zones in most of the Tory controlled areas that I can think of are generally limited to council estates, town centres and specific private residential streets upon request of the residents. Swindon (which has not adopted widespread 20mph limits) has been under Tory control (at the council level) since about 2004 and I think some of the opposition councillors have suggested a more widespread 20mph rollout but the town's Tory controlled cabinet turned the suggestion down.
The Welsh government made it a policy to have part or full time 20 limits outside schools a few years ago, and locally the trunk roads agency spent a lot of time and money fitting part time 20 limits on the primary/trunk network where it passed schools. Unfortunately the variable speed units they use have an annoying habit of randomly not working.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by RJDG14 »

rhyds wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 23:40
RJDG14 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 22:24 Something I noticed when in Wales the other week was that most areas around schools had 24/7 20 limits, and in most cases the limit was set quite far back from where the gates were, typically by several hundred metres, which made me wonder in numerous cases why fairly major through routes without much dense housing had 20 limits until I saw the school. Where I live in England most roads near schools have "20 when lights flash" signs but under my local council's policy, these are only advisory limits and are not enforceable (unless the road happens to be in a 20 zone anyway).

While this is not a political thread, I am curious if Labour run councils in England are more likely to have adopted default 20mph restrictions than Tory run ones? Most of the places I can think of which have adopted widespread 20mph restrictions are under the control of Labour, the Lib-Dems, the Greens or one of the Scottish/Welsh nationalist parties, while 20mph zones in most of the Tory controlled areas that I can think of are generally limited to council estates, town centres and specific private residential streets upon request of the residents. Swindon (which has not adopted widespread 20mph limits) has been under Tory control (at the council level) since about 2004 and I think some of the opposition councillors have suggested a more widespread 20mph rollout but the town's Tory controlled cabinet turned the suggestion down.
The Welsh government made it a policy to have part or full time 20 limits outside schools a few years ago, and locally the trunk roads agency spent a lot of time and money fitting part time 20 limits on the primary/trunk network where it passed schools. Unfortunately the variable speed units they use have an annoying habit of randomly not working.
If it's an enforcable 20 when lights flash sign and it happens not to be working, would the limit be enforceable during school opening/closing hours? If the sign does not specify any specific hours (probably along the lines of Monday-Friday 7:30-9AM and 3-5PM) and only specifies "when lights flash", it could be quite misleading if the lights happen not to be working.

I remember back in the mid 2000s, before Bath rolled out enforceable 20 zones across the entire city, that there were a number of areas (Combe Down comes to mind) which had some green circled advisory 20 limits in place, although they were not enforceable. Are there any parts of the country where such advisory 20 zone signs still exist, considering that enforced 20 limits are far more common now than they were 15 years ago? The advisory "20 when lights flash" signs near schools that are found in some areas typically have no circle at all round the "20" digits, rather it will just be text in a white box.

Does anyone here remember roughly how common 20 zones were in the late 1990s? It looks like there were approximately 450 such zones in 1999, I suspect mostly limited to a specific housing estate. This would have probably equated to an average of 1 per large settlement, however I'm sure some areas would have had multiple zones while many would have had none. I know that nearly all large 20 signs (excluding repeaters) used to be rectangular signs that read "20 ZONE" and most of these are still standing today, but a lot of the newer installations from the past few years, particularly in places that have made 20 universal such as Bath, are circular and simply read "20", much like a standalone 30 sign.

I am also curious to know what the largest settlement in England would currently be which lacks any 20 zones at all? While only a small but growing number of places, mostly large cities, have a universal 20 residential speed limit, most places I can think of have at least 1 20 zone somewhere, most commonly in their centre, near a school, in a council estate or in an area with road safety issues.


I have noticed that areas with widespread 20 zones tend to have noticeably more street clutter than areas without, and I don't think it's just the 20 signs that make the difference. There is virtually no street clutter at all in my area of Swindon (which is still 30), and most of the residential streets don't even have any markings. Aside from the streetlights having been changed from (mostly) low pressure sodium (which dated from the 1980s when the area was built) to LED a year or two ago, most of the roads in my area are otherwise completely identical to when the area was built circa-1987, and I believe most of them haven't even been resurfaced since then other than for pothole patching and fibre installations. The Oldfield Park area of Bath felt fairly similar when I lived there in the early 2000s, but there have been a lot of street markings and new signage (including but not limited to 20 signs) added since then. I suspect that Tory run councils (such as Swindon) may be less likely to splash money at street maintenance than Labour or Lib-Dem controlled councils unless it actually needs to be done. Swindon and Wiltshire are also relatively underfunded areas of the country as well when it comes to maintenance. Many of the schools where I live are, or were when I was of school-age, in quite poor condition. The prefabricated music department at my secondary school which was only built in about 1997-8 (making it a little under 15 years old when I was in Y7) was incredibly humid inside and smelt so damp that I struggled to learn in it.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by jnty »

I tend to think that one of the benefits of wider 20 limits - with the sometimes optimistic assumption that this is coupled with design interventions which reduce average speeds on busier roads - ought to be that sign clutter can be significantly reduced. Obviously if 20 is the default then repeaters can go, but they usually end up out of the way on lamp posts anyway. I'm thinking of things like roadworks signs - what is the point of two lane closure warnings and a roadworks sign on a 20 road where the closed lane would usually be fully parked up anyway?! A high visibility barrier should be more than enough in most circumstances. Also, advance warning of side road dead ends, banned turns etc is much less likely to be required when motorists ought to be perfectly able to see the side road signage in advance. Bend warnings and similar signs are rare in cities but can surely go. Advanced directional signage, so often obscured by parking or trees anyway, is unlikely to be required so much, at least on side roads. All speed hump warnings can surely be torn out too.

I think this becomes even more true when combined with LTNs - if there's only one entrance to a neighbourhood with a clear "gateway" why can't you just make the entire LTN a restricted parking zone and get rid of almost all signage, yellow lines and safety-related road furniture?
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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You forgot to mention the fluffy bunnies gambolling across the street and the wild flowers sprouting up at the sides of the road. :roll:
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:16 You forgot to mention the fluffy bunnies gambolling across the street and the wild flowers sprouting up at the sides of the road. :roll:
I don't really see taking a few signs down as that unrealistically utopian, but I suppose in the pessimistic "better things aren't possible" worldview so pervasive in this country now I may as well have suggested a trip to Mars.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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jnty wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:55
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:16 You forgot to mention the fluffy bunnies gambolling across the street and the wild flowers sprouting up at the sides of the road. :roll:
I don't really see taking a few signs down as that unrealistically utopian, but I suppose in the pessimistic "better things aren't possible" worldview so pervasive in this country now I may as well have suggested a trip to Mars.
Tsk! Mars. You'd never get there. It'd take just over 143 years at 20mph.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:07
jnty wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:55
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:16 You forgot to mention the fluffy bunnies gambolling across the street and the wild flowers sprouting up at the sides of the road. :roll:
I don't really see taking a few signs down as that unrealistically utopian, but I suppose in the pessimistic "better things aren't possible" worldview so pervasive in this country now I may as well have suggested a trip to Mars.
Tsk! Mars. You'd never get there. It'd take just over 143 years at 20mph.
Yes, but once you arrive there is a complete lack of street clutter! Worth the wait perhaps.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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jnty wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:10
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:07
jnty wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 09:55 I don't really see taking a few signs down as that unrealistically utopian, but I suppose in the pessimistic "better things aren't possible" worldview so pervasive in this country now I may as well have suggested a trip to Mars.
Tsk! Mars. You'd never get there. It'd take just over 143 years at 20mph.
Yes, but once you arrive there is a complete lack of street clutter! Worth the wait perhaps.
Only if you think a complete lack of streets is also a very good thing.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:30
jnty wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:10
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:07
Tsk! Mars. You'd never get there. It'd take just over 143 years at 20mph.
Yes, but once you arrive there is a complete lack of street clutter! Worth the wait perhaps.
Only if you think a complete lack of streets is also a very good thing.
No, just a lack of residential streets dominated by ABD types that think their 2 ton box being allowed to do 30+ is all that matters and to hell with everyone else would be nice.

I mean, the fact we live in a country where people believe inanimate objects should have more rights than living beings just shows you how bonkers car culture has become.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Chris Bertram »

I've yet to see a motor vehicle that moves itself, empty. They're for the use of people, who are definitely living beings.

And who are these "ABD types"? It's hard to find a definitive figure for the organisation's membership, so I suspect there aren't many. I do occasionally look at their site, it's fairly predictable that they write from a driver's PoV I suppose, and it's useful to have a counterbalance to the multiple organisations that scream "reduce the speed limit" at the drop of a hat.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by belgarion »

Fully understand 20mph zones but driving in Scotland last year, the A68 through Jedburgh was painfully long at 20mph.

If the thinking is that they get more compliance of 30 if the zone is set to 20, can they use 25 instead, it would feel a little less painful.

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