Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

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A303Chris
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Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by A303Chris »

This popped up in my GOV UK email to day, and I am still working out of this is a good thing, or is it the case of more nanny stating from incompetent civil servants.

It states that it will be an Independent, safety-focused Branch to make recommendations to prevent future incidents, make our roads even safer and save lives across the country.

But surely this what the safety teams in the Police, Local Authorities and National Highways do anyway. Seems an unnecessary level of bureaucracy.

I understand the Air Safety Investigation Branch and Rail Safety Investigation Branch, but just can not see the point of this.
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DB617
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by DB617 »

The RAIB model of being an organisation responsible for safety reviews and not necessarily apportionment of blame is attractive to road designers in some ways. For example, if an RTC happens due to high speed by a misbehaving driver the prevailing wisdom is "Caused by excess speed" whereas an RAIB type organisation might identify the causal factors such as "The road is 20mph and has many children who tend to play on it but has no traffic calming or implicit design measures to prevent excess speed". IME Police investigations tend not to examine road design as they haven't a clue how it works. At best they may list the location for further enforcement. The road incident investigation system as it stood was myopic in the extreme. They frequently label blind corners and hill crests 'accident blackspots' and be done with it - doing nothing to prevent further incidents.

That said, how much faith do I have in new bodies under this government? None. Who would want to be a civil servant under the current ministers who openly admit to fostering a toxic work culture? The new mental health and cycling bodies don't seem to have had much luck either.
jnty
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by jnty »

Accident reports from the RAIB are really well written and clear even to the layperson and have obvious use in terms of the recommendations they make. If the same standards apply here I can see the body being useful, not just in terms of pushing road authorities to do the right thing but in driving standards up for professional drivers and (more importantly) their employers. I guess there's a chance it might push policy and law in a positive direction too but who knows.
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JohnnyMo
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by JohnnyMo »

What will be interesting is if the RSIB makes a recommendation will it be actioned either at the site or nationwide. I know with Rail & Air the recommendations these are almost always actioned but there is not the same safety first attitude on the road.

The obvious one is what if the RSIB say all lane running is unsafe how will the Highways England react.
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jnty
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by jnty »

JohnnyMo wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 13:59 What will be interesting is if the RSIB makes a recommendation will it be actioned either at the site or nationwide. I know with Rail & Air the recommendations these are almost always actioned but there is not the same safety first attitude on the road.

The obvious one is what if the RSIB say all lane running is unsafe how will the Highways England react.
Yes I suppose the risk is that road operation is more 'political' than rail. Even quite dramatic recommendations that the RAIB might make probably appear fairly dry outside the the industry whereas everyone has an opinion on how roads work. I would imagine that the most sensible approach would be to take roads largely as they find them and make specific recommendations like "speed limits should be reduced more quickly in circumstance X" rather than "all lane running is bad."

In fact, I saw a pre-RAIB report by a judge-led inquiry which was looking into a head-on train crash on a small section of single track at a junction. The report explicitly said something like "clearly this crash wouldn't have happened if this single track section hadn't been there, but by necessity trains must run on single track sections sometimes and it is possible to do it safely elsewhere and should be possible to do it safely here - so the recommendations will be about how to do that" - whereas the 'tabloidy' route would be to just declare single line running unsafe. Presumably the same attitude would be taken on something like ALR.
John McAdam
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by John McAdam »

Great idea, though of course it's far from being a new idea.

There's mention in the announcement about self-driving vehicles:
This independent, safety-focused Branch will learn the lessons from road collisions and other incidents including those involving self-driving vehicles by carrying out independent investigations and making recommendations to prevent future incidents, make our roads even safer and save lives across the country.

I wonder if the (potential) future growth in self-driving cars, at least in some environments, helped push this up the agenda.

The devil will be in the detail - what will be in scope for RSIB to investigate, how will they investigate etc. It won't - and cannot - mirror the modus operandi of the Rail Accident Investigation Branch or the Air Accident Investigation Branch. Perhaps worth noting the slight change in name from the consultation, which spoke of a Road Collision Investigation Branch - instead a Road Safety Investigation Branch suggests a more general approach.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by KeithW »

JohnnyMo wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 13:59 What will be interesting is if the RSIB makes a recommendation will it be actioned either at the site or nationwide. I know with Rail & Air the recommendations these are almost always actioned but there is not the same safety first attitude on the road.

The obvious one is what if the RSIB say all lane running is unsafe how will the Highways England react.
Well in many cases with Air there were safety issues with high tail rear engine aircraft like the BAC 1-11, Trident and VC10 as a deep stall could lead to the wings blocking airflow to the tail.

The only thing that the AAIB could do was to recommend the installation better warning systems including stick shakers and insist flight crew should have training on the issue. Despite the warnings that is what happened to a BEA Trident in 1972. Something similar happened with the testing of the BAC 1-11 and that was allowed into service with improved crew training, stall warning systems and stick shakers.

Its highly unlikely that RSIB would say ALR was unsafe given that research has given a mixed result. Accidents are slightly more frequent with ALR but the level of fatalities and serious injuries are lower as speed limit compliance is higher. As with the other boards they can make recommendations but only in the rarest of cases, such as Comet 1, can they order a grounding of the type.

The DC-10 (see Sioux City Accident) for example still has known vulnerabilities but the decision has been to let them fly with flight and maintenance crews given better training.
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Barkstar
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by Barkstar »

In many way not a bad idea but if their recommendations are that a layout is changed that could very quickly become a bit of a morass with regard to who pays what if the findings are deemed binding.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by KeithW »

Barkstar wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 21:53 In many way not a bad idea but if their recommendations are that a layout is changed that could very quickly become a bit of a morass with regard to who pays what if the findings are deemed binding.
The reality is that many councils simply dont have the money but there are specific junctions on major roads that are patently unsafe and have been highlighted multiple times.

Here is a classic example on the A505.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.02768 ... 8192?hl=en

The side road is unclassified but leads to Ashwell and Mordern Station and then to Steeple Mordern and Ashwell Mordern

The A505 is unlit , has a flat junction on a busy D2 road and the sightlines are awful. I have personally had 2 near misses when a large vehicle has simply pulled across the road , worse there have been a number of wrong way incidents.

The latest example happened in November 2021 when a driver turned onto the wrong carriageway , stopped and then was hit by a car coming from the other direction, injuries were light but it is a location where fatal accidents have occurred.

https://www.royston-crow.co.uk/news/cri ... sh-7889778

Its a classic example of a cheap on line dualling with only one GSV, roundabouts and flat junctions which has become a major road but is not trunk.
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by trickstat »

KeithW wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:42
Barkstar wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 21:53 In many way not a bad idea but if their recommendations are that a layout is changed that could very quickly become a bit of a morass with regard to who pays what if the findings are deemed binding.
The reality is that many councils simply dont have the money but there are specific junctions on major roads that are patently unsafe and have been highlighted multiple times.

Here is a classic example on the A505.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.02768 ... 8192?hl=en

The side road is unclassified but leads to Ashwell and Mordern Station and then to Steeple Mordern and Ashwell Mordern

The A505 is unlit , has a flat junction on a busy D2 road and the sightlines are awful. I have personally had 2 near misses when a large vehicle has simply pulled across the road , worse there have been a number of wrong way incidents.

The latest example happened in November 2021 when a driver turned onto the wrong carriageway , stopped and then was hit by a car coming from the other direction, injuries were light but it is a location where fatal accidents have occurred.

https://www.royston-crow.co.uk/news/cri ... sh-7889778

Its a classic example of a cheap on line dualling with only one GSV, roundabouts and flat junctions which has become a major road but is not trunk.
The only grade separated junction was built as part of the Baldock bypass which is much newer than the original DC section nearer to Royston.
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Vierwielen
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by Vierwielen »

As others have said, the remit of the RSIB needs to be looked at carefully.

A few years ago I went on a tour of the AAIB. The AAIB investigate every air accident in the UK as well as "near-misses" and it is law that these be reported. They also act for small countries who cannot afford their own AAIB. The UK AAIB has two hangers at Farnborough Airfield, filled with aircraft wreckages. The wreckages that I saw included the Hawker Hunter that crashed at Shoreham and the police helicopter that crashed into a pub in Glasgow. Part of the RAIB site is adjacent to the AAIB site and I saw the wreckage of the Croydon tram in the distance. Clearly the RSIB cannot have the same remit as the AAIB or the RAIB. Perhaps the most neutral source could be the Office for National Statistics who woudl contact the RSIB whenever something that was statistically out of place was thrown up.
BF2142
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by BF2142 »

Ah, good good. We do need another govt body preaching about "safety". Just keep banging on about safety all the time as if it's some trump card over all other considerations.
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Re: Road Safety Investigation Branch launches

Post by SteveA30 »

Logically, they should conclude that all at grade junctions are unsafe so that thousands of GSJ's will be built.... :facepalm: :pig:
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