Old Concrete Road, Penrith

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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by KeithW »

dewy wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 08:39 Just came across this through Google, and you may be interested in an update, because I drove along this road yesterday. I have used it a few times previously, because it's an excellent shortcut from J39 of the M6 to Swindale or Haweswater. I assume it's owned by United Utilities, because there are plenty of UU signs saying that the road is private property, there is dangerous subsidence, the bridges are weak, and the road is closed - but there are no gates or other barriers, and to me the condition is no worse than a typical public road. The signage isn't consistent. Where it crosses the road into Swindale there are no UU signs at all, and it's the UU road that has priority - the Give Way signs are on the public road. The stretch by the A6 is not accessible, but you can drive the full length from the Wet Sleddale road to Burnbanks, and it does get a fair amount of use.

The old concrete road is private , not a public highway but as you say much of it is passable. The section from the A6 heading east is gated because the quarry is still active.

As I am sure you know there is a public road to the A6 from J39 of the M6, the B6261 which predates the M6. I rode a motorcycle along it when the M6 was being built.

The old concrete road from the A6 to Wet Sleddale is signed as a dead end and at the bottom another sign says road closed, however the gate is usually open. I had not used it since 1968 so could not vouch for its condition :)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.50990 ... 8192?hl=en

That said looking at the point the old concrete road crosses the access road to Keld chapel it seems to be open, the Google Street Map car seems to have made it OK.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51436 ... 6656?hl=en
dewy
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by dewy »

I'm pretty sure the road up to the dam in Wet Sleddale (the location of Uncle Monty's Cottage, if you're interested) is not private. About a quarter of a mile down from your link on the A6 you come to

https://tinyurl.com/y97wbpz7

This is the point where you can access the Old Concrete Road at the A6 end. The red ROAD CLOSED sign has been replaced by UU signs saying the same thing. The gate the other side is closed and the track is overgrown.

https://tinyurl.com/j38z9rvn

This is on the road out of Swindale. The private road has priority over the public road and there is nothing to tell you that the road is private. This is unchanged today.
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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by KeithW »

dewy wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:41 I'm pretty sure the road up to the dam in Wet Sleddale (the location of Uncle Monty's Cottage, if you're interested) is not private. About a quarter of a mile down from your link on the A6 you come to

https://tinyurl.com/y97wbpz7

This is the point where you can access the Old Concrete Road at the A6 end. The red ROAD CLOSED sign has been replaced by UU signs saying the same thing. The gate the other side is closed and the track is overgrown.

https://tinyurl.com/j38z9rvn

This is on the road out of Swindale. The private road has priority over the public road and there is nothing to tell you that the road is private. This is unchanged today.

Ultimately the only way to be sure is to consult the definitive rights of way map held by Cumbria CC, it online here
https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-transp ... ay/map.asp

The road from the A6 to Wet Sleddale is a public right of way

Section: U3234 102
Section Name: JCT U3233 to A6 JCT NR HARDEDALE QUARRY
Section Type: SINGLE 2-LANE CARRIAGEWAY
Class: Unclassified
Section Length: 790
Region: EDEN
Owner: Cumbria CC
Agent: ?
UKPMS RCI: R
The right turn onto the old Concrete Road and its entire length is not shown as a Public Right Of Way, sections are drivable but there appears to be no actual public right of access.
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Alderpoint
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:56
dewy wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:41 https://tinyurl.com/j38z9rvn
This is on the road out of Swindale. The private road has priority over the public road and there is nothing to tell you that the road is private. This is unchanged today.

Ultimately the only way to be sure is to consult the definitive rights of way map held by Cumbria CC, it online here
https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-transp ... ay/map.asp

The road from the A6 to Wet Sleddale is a public right of way

The right turn onto the old Concrete Road and its entire length is not shown as a Public Right Of Way, sections are drivable but there appears to be no actual public right of access.
A definitive map shows what the public have a right to access. Many roads which people use are privately owned, yet access is permitted by the owner, e.g. many industrial estate roads, supermarket access roads etc so on, but the public do not have the right to access such roads.

Cumbria CC are unusual in showing the access rights on roads: most definitive maps do not show this information, only showing footpaths, bridleways, etc. But if you look at e.g. Penrith you can see quite a few roads which are not marked as "public" but which are still clearly accessible.

If a road owner wants to decline access to a road, then they need to explicitly state so. Stating the road is "private" is not in itself sufficient, it needs to state something along the lines of "no unauthorised access" or similar. Even then, the offence is still civil trespass and police will not normally get involved.
Let it snow.
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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by KeithW »

Alderpoint wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 15:12 A definitive map shows what the public have a right to access. Many roads which people use are privately owned, yet access is permitted by the owner, e.g. many industrial estate roads, supermarket access roads etc so on, but the public do not have the right to access such roads.

Cumbria CC are unusual in showing the access rights on roads: most definitive maps do not show this information, only showing footpaths, bridleways, etc. But if you look at e.g. Penrith you can see quite a few roads which are not marked as "public" but which are still clearly accessible.

If a road owner wants to decline access to a road, then they need to explicitly state so. Stating the road is "private" is not in itself sufficient, it needs to state something along the lines of "no unauthorised access" or similar. Even then, the offence is still civil trespass and police will not normally get involved.
I believe this is what I actually said :)

A large part of the reason is to limit liability if someone does use the road and to minimise expenditure on maintenance. There are many private roads in North Yorkshire, and Northumberland including forest roads but if you run off the road or smash the underside of the car up that's your problem. There are lot fewer than there used to be as some have been adopted, others made restricted byways and quite a few are now gated.

Here is an example I have ridden along in the past (on a trials motorbike) but which appears to be gated now. Its a rather good shortcut to Levisham but not suitable for low slung cars or a Honda Goldwing :)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.33517 ... 6656?hl=en

This is the Levisham end.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.30428 ... 6656?hl=en

Be aware if you do use such a road and come a cropper your insurer may well refuse your claim unless you use one that specifically allows it. Many a 4x4 driver has lost money due to this.
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Alderpoint
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 18:07 I believe this is what I actually said :)
Not really. You implied that because a road was not on the Cumbria CC map it was not permitted to drive along it. i suggest you check the status of the M6 on that map.
This is the Levisham end.
Yes I know it well.
Be aware if you do use such a road and come a cropper your insurer may well refuse your claim unless you use one that specifically allows it. Many a 4x4 driver has lost money due to this.
Nothing I can see in any policy I've ever had restricts where I can drive within geographic limits.
Let it snow.
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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

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Alderpoint wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 22:41 Not really. You implied that because a road was not on the Cumbria CC map it was not permitted to drive along it. i suggest you check the status of the M6 on that map.
Definitive rights of way maps are required to be kept up to date by County Councils and made publicly available by the 2008 countryside act see
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... -guide.pdf

Here is the definitive map for Cambridgeshire
https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/resid ... -statement

Motorways of course are special roads and have their own statutory instrument that defines access rights. Here is an extract for the for the A12 Westlink in Northern Ireland.
The A12 Westlink is designated a special road which may be used by all classes of traffic except pedestrians and cyclists. The inspector who conducted the Public Enquiry into the proposed Westlink designated the maximum width of roadway, which did not leave sufficient room for the provision of footways or hardshoulders, through the depressed section of the Westlink. In order to accommodate local access for slow moving vehicles in the urban area, all other classes of traffic may use the Westlink.

As for what I said lets look at it again shall we
The right turn onto the old Concrete Road and its entire length is not shown as a Public Right Of Way, sections are drivable but there appears to be no actual public right of access.
Not a word about not being permitted.
Nothing I can see in any policy I've ever had restricts where I can drive within geographic limits.

Then you have been fortunate, all I can suggest is you look at the number of companies who provide such insurance The caveats regarding driving on private roads are usually well hidden in the small print by a mention of 'in normal use' which typical means on public rights of way with a hard surface. I suspect if you have passed a sign indicating the Road is Closed you would be playing on a very sticky wicket but of course its no offense unless of course its MOD land in which case all bets are off.

Here is what the AA policy is on exclusions for recovery of vehicles.
Service to Vehicles on private property unless relevant permission is given: that is the
provision of service when Your Vehicle is on private property e.g. garage premises, unless
You can establish that You have the permission of the owner or occupier.
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 23:48
Here is what the AA policy is on exclusions for recovery of vehicles.
Service to Vehicles on private property unless relevant permission is given: that is the
provision of service when Your Vehicle is on private property e.g. garage premises, unless
You can establish that You have the permission of the owner or occupier.
Recovery is surely a completely different matter as they're promising to come out and get you. They can only do that if they know they can legally and safely access your location. While driving off public roads clearly has a different risk profile, there's no intrinsic issue with insuring you as you can write off your car just as hard on the road as off it.

If my foot slips as I'm pulling into a private driveway and I slam the car into a wall, would I be able to claim on fully comp? I'm fairly sure I would.
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Alderpoint
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 23:48 Definitive rights of way maps are required to be kept up to date by County Councils and made publicly available by the 2008 countryside act
No need to teach me to suck eggs thankyou. What you linked to for Cumbria is NOT the definitive map, and is also pretty much useless for showing whether there is public vehicular access to any particular road.
Here is what the AA policy is on exclusions for recovery of vehicles.
Again irrelevent waffle. Are you seriously suggesting the AA will not attend if on a supermarket carpark? Maybe that's why I don't use them.
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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by KeithW »

Alderpoint wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 07:37
KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 23:48 Definitive rights of way maps are required to be kept up to date by County Councils and made publicly available by the 2008 countryside act
No need to teach me to suck eggs thankyou. What you linked to for Cumbria is NOT the definitive map, and is also pretty much useless for showing whether there is public vehicular access to any particular road.
Here is what the AA policy is on exclusions for recovery of vehicles.
Again irrelevent waffle. Are you seriously suggesting the AA will not attend if on a supermarket carpark? Maybe that's why I don't use them.
So the map on this web site
https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-transp ... ay/map.asp

Which has this heading
Public rights of way in Cumbria

Does not show an electronic facsimile of the map maintained by Cumbria !

In that case feel free to take it up with them, you can make an appointment to visit them and inspect the original.

As to supermarket car parks clearly the AA are well aware that they are allowed access, however if you break down on the Sellafield or Harwell site you may have to make other arrangements. I had to have a pass to get through the gates there when I worked for UKAEAT.

I was trying to be helpful but in the face of this hostility I am done here - do as you wish.
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KeithW
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by KeithW »

I have no intention pf participating any farther in this discussion but there is a piece of information on what may cause your insurance to be invalidated I wish to share, it came with my policy and is online. You are of course free to ignore this and it may not apply to your insurer.
https://www.admiral.com/magazine/guides/motor/eleven-things-which-could-invalidate-your-car-insurance wrote: 11. Driving in unusual locations
If you decide to take your car for a spin on the Nürburgring, for example, your cover with Admiral would no longer be in place.

Similarly, Admiral will not cover you to take part in any organised motorsports or rallying events. The General Exceptions section of the policy booklets lays out exactly what would not be covered by your policy.

Obviously, this isn’t a definitive list and you may find there are more than 11 things which could invalidate your insurance which is why reading your policy documents is so important!

If you need to arrange your car insurance, get a quote with Admiral today.

Now you've read up on a number of things that might void your car insurance, take a look at our guide to what can invalidate your home insurance.
As to the issue of whether this private road is a an unusual location I will leave that to the lawyers.
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by Hdeng16 »

Alderpoint wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 07:37
KeithW wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 23:48 Definitive rights of way maps are required to be kept up to date by County Councils and made publicly available by the 2008 countryside act
No need to teach me to suck eggs thankyou. What you linked to for Cumbria is NOT the definitive map, and is also pretty much useless for showing whether there is public vehicular access to any particular road.
Here is what the AA policy is on exclusions for recovery of vehicles.
Again irrelevent waffle. Are you seriously suggesting the AA will not attend if on a supermarket carpark? Maybe that's why I don't use them.
Nicely said :laugh:
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Re: Old Concrete Road, Penrith

Post by Rob590 »

I happened to notice while I was out today that Wainwright mentions the "New Road" in his notes at the back of his Far Eastern Fells Book. Alongside bemoaning the damage done to Mardale by the expansion of Haweswater, he says that "For a walker who can call upon transport, however, the new road gives splendid access to the heart of the fells". This was published in 1957 so it seems to have been in full public use at that time.
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