Lay-bys with/without ‘P’ plates

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Rob590
Member
Posts: 690
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:21

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Rob590 »

There's one on the A19 northbound coming out of Tyne and Wear towards Northumberland which oddly gets its own brown signs one a mile out and another at its entrance.

The "i" is little more than a map (picked up in the October 2020 streetview). I think, looking at the OS Map, we must be just into Northumberland and so presumably the map and the brown signs are intended for tourists planning to take the coastal route up through Northumberland, but the brown sign seems to oversell the attractiveness of what's coming!
tom66
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 16:47

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by tom66 »

I wonder who Sandy is and why their letch is so important!
User avatar
Pendlemac
Member
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:58
Location: Pendle, Lancashire

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Pendlemac »

tom66 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:35 I wonder who Sandy is and why their letch is so important!
Wicktionary has this
Etymology 2

From Middle English leche, for example Sandy's Letch located east of Annitsford in Northumberland.
Noun

letch (plural letches)

A stream or pool in boggy land.
here
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3458
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by A303Chris »

SteelCamel wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 18:22
A303Chris wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 13:53 I know this is not the facebook page, but I will now mention the A9.
Plenty of parking laybys between Perth and Inverness, which are signed in advance
Then each layby is numbered when you get there.
I think this is the last one just south of Inverness, layby 168.

I presume they are number as there are no marker posts along the A9, and the number laybys assisted emergency services and recovery vehicles. Given the distance better to say layby 98 instead of somewhere between Perth and Inverness.
No, the numbers continue to Tore Roundabout. Pretty sure the last one is layby 194. They start at layby 1 just north of Inveralmond roundabout. There are no numbers on the rest of the A9.
As you say, this stretch of A9 is rather lacking in landmarks, especially as it bypasses most towns and villages so even the junction signs are ambiguous.
Thanks, I never knew they went that far north onto the Black Isle, I only noticed them to Inverness last year.
The M25 - The road to nowhere
Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4140
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Nwallace »

Tore would be where the 1970s/80s upgrade ends?

Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 10923
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Nwallace wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 23:21 Tore would be where the 1970s/80s upgrade ends?

Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk
That upgrade included the Cromarty Bridge, so further north than Tore.
Lifelong motorhead
VW Touareg TDi for towing and longer journeys - Citroen C1 for shorter journeys.
User avatar
FosseWay
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 17598
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by FosseWay »

SteelCamel wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 18:57 And for a contrast, here's the exact opposite.
What a peculiar turn of phrase - "Slow moving vehicles draw in..."

Since when do we "draw in" to let faster traffic pass? "Pull over" would have been a lot clearer.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
SteelCamel
Member
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 15:46

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by SteelCamel »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 09:02
Nwallace wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 23:21 Tore would be where the 1970s/80s upgrade ends?
That upgrade included the Cromarty Bridge, so further north than Tore.
RileyRob has already pointed out that I was mistaken, the numbers continue over the Cromarty Firth Bridge. But the upgraded A9 continues over the Dornoch Firth Bridge and up to the A949 Dornoch turn - and there are definitely no signed numbers between Ardullie and Dornoch.
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 9509
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by AndyB »

doebag wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 13:56 Out and about this morning and I got to thinking about different lay-by’s.

Some have P plates some don’t. But some without look bigger or better quality than some with plates.

Is there some sort of standard required to merit a P plate.
I think the standard required is that the landowner has planning permission to provide a parking place there for the benefit of the public, whether charged or not. Obvious exceptions being old roads simply being reappropriated by the highway authority as parking places with or without planning permission.

The relatively (in my experience) few which don't have P plates don't forbid parking, but nor does their existence mean that the landowner (even if the local council) permits it.
SteveA30
Member
Posts: 5619
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by SteveA30 »

Another inconsistency is that some older tarmaced laybys do not have the dotted boundary line or whatever it is called. Does that mean they are not an official layby? What is the legal definition of a layby?

Also, drivers will create their own layby where they want one. On the Blandford bypass, there are home made laybys after each rbt. It opened in 1985, with no layby provision at all. After (mostly) lorry drivers took things into their own hands, DCC built 2, one each side of the Wimborne road. The home made ones are still popular though.

The McD on the Dorchester bypass has cramped parking for cars and much verge parking nearby for the many who can't get in. Lorry drivers use a home made layby on the A35 and walk back along the verge to McD. The council intends to block the verges, instead of catering for the clear demand. They should enlarge the A35 layby and provide a path to McD, instead of being obstructive and bureaucratic. I would have thought restricting trade at McD would be illegal.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 15540
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Chris5156 »

SteveA30 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 07:20The McD on the Dorchester bypass has cramped parking for cars and much verge parking nearby for the many who can't get in. Lorry drivers use a home made layby on the A35 and walk back along the verge to McD. The council intends to block the verges, instead of catering for the clear demand. They should enlarge the A35 layby and provide a path to McD, instead of being obstructive and bureaucratic. I would have thought restricting trade at McD would be illegal.
To me that's not restricting trade at a private business, the business is free to trade and serve as many people as wish to turn up.

If there's not enough parking at McDonald's for everyone who wants to eat there, it's not the job of the taxpayer to spend money paving extra parking spaces on the public highway in a rural location just to benefit them... and I don't think a company with an annual turnover of $23bn should need that sort of subsidy from the public sector anyway!
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 1975
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by the cheesecake man »

Unsurprisingly there's not much consistency.

Here's a layby on Sheffield Parkway with a nice clear P.

Nearby here's one without.
SteelCamel
Member
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 15:46

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by SteelCamel »

the cheesecake man wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 13:31 Unsurprisingly there's not much consistency.

Here's a layby on Sheffield Parkway with a nice clear P.

Nearby here's one without.
The difference I think is that the first is a purpose built layby, while the second is a leftover bit of tarmac. The bridge is three lanes for future-proofing, and it's been tarmacced the full width as presumably it wasn't designed to carry a grass verge. There's no reason not to allow you to stop on it, so it's got the dotted line to permit this. It doesn't have tapered ends, and is a bit short for a layby on a fast road, so they've not put up a "P" - and in fact have put up a "Parking 1/2 mile" sign - to encourage you to continue to the "proper" layby up the road.
SteveA30
Member
Posts: 5619
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by SteveA30 »

But, they won't be free to serve as many people as wish to turn up, if the council obstruct the verges. I'm sure rich McD would pay for extra bays, if planning allows it. It is a planning issue really. The building used to be a transport cafe called the Monkeys Jump. The planning permission for McD is only for light vehicles, as it must be for all McD's but drivers of larger vehicles want to go there and because the car park is too small and has a cramped layout, they have to park on the verges of the u/c road to Martinstown. It is a mess but, if they want to go there they should be allowed to, not from a legal perspective but, from a choice perspective. There are no other McD's on the A35 or A37, away from Poole.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 23166
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Owain »

I discovered this one last week. It looks like an unmarked bus stop.
Former President & F99 Driver

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Can you contribute to the SABRE Wiki or help with SABRE Maps?
doebag
Member
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:47
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by doebag »

Owain wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 20:39 I discovered this one last week. It looks like an unmarked bus stop.
I’ve seen a number of those where they allow postal vans to clear the road when emptying adjacent post boxes.
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Alderpoint »

doebag wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 07:11
Owain wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 20:39 I discovered this one last week. It looks like an unmarked bus stop.
I’ve seen a number of those where they allow postal vans to clear the road when emptying adjacent post boxes.
The one on the other side of the road has a shelter, so almost certainly is a bus stop. But there is no signage to suggest you can't park in either.
Let it snow.
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 9509
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by AndyB »

SteveA30 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 21:28 But, they won't be free to serve as many people as wish to turn up, if the council obstruct the verges. I'm sure rich McD would pay for extra bays, if planning allows it. It is a planning issue really. The building used to be a transport cafe called the Monkeys Jump. The planning permission for McD is only for light vehicles, as it must be for all McD's but drivers of larger vehicles want to go there and because the car park is too small and has a cramped layout, they have to park on the verges of the u/c road to Martinstown. It is a mess but, if they want to go there they should be allowed to, not from a legal perspective but, from a choice perspective. There are no other McD's on the A35 or A37, away from Poole.
I would agree with the point that was made, that if McDonalds want to cater for additional customers, then it's up to McDonalds to provide parking. There's nothing to prevent them securing a more appropriate site where they can build a decent parking area, and it's a problem that should have been blindingly obvious when they purchased that site in the first place.
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by bothar »

SteveA30 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 21:28 But, they won't be free to serve as many people as wish to turn up, if the council obstruct the verges. I'm sure rich McD would pay for extra bays, if planning allows it. It is a planning issue really. The building used to be a transport cafe called the Monkeys Jump. The planning permission for McD is only for light vehicles, as it must be for all McD's but drivers of larger vehicles want to go there and because the car park is too small and has a cramped layout, they have to park on the verges of the u/c road to Martinstown. It is a mess but, if they want to go there they should be allowed to, not from a legal perspective but, from a choice perspective. There are no other McD's on the A35 or A37, away from Poole.
One complaint of lorry drivers during the driver shortage last year was that councils etc are continually restricting where they can park when they need to stop for meal and toilet breaks. You typical council will block the verges first and deal with the planning to extend the car park later, when it should be the other way around.
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 10923
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Lay-by’s with/without ‘P’ plates

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

bothar wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:10
SteveA30 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 21:28 But, they won't be free to serve as many people as wish to turn up, if the council obstruct the verges. I'm sure rich McD would pay for extra bays, if planning allows it. It is a planning issue really. The building used to be a transport cafe called the Monkeys Jump. The planning permission for McD is only for light vehicles, as it must be for all McD's but drivers of larger vehicles want to go there and because the car park is too small and has a cramped layout, they have to park on the verges of the u/c road to Martinstown. It is a mess but, if they want to go there they should be allowed to, not from a legal perspective but, from a choice perspective. There are no other McD's on the A35 or A37, away from Poole.
One complaint of lorry drivers during the driver shortage last year was that councils etc are continually restricting where they can park when they need to stop for meal and toilet breaks. You typical council will block the verges first and deal with the planning to extend the car park later, when it should be the other way around.
It seems clear that many industrial/distribution estates need dedicated HGV parking rather than rely on local roads - I frequently drive through the Hams Hall Industrial Park and the roads are packed with 40' HGVs either resting up between daily drives or waiting for their unloading slot - of course, if such parking was provided there would be need for food/drink which would then drag car drivers in, causing congestion!
Lifelong motorhead
VW Touareg TDi for towing and longer journeys - Citroen C1 for shorter journeys.
Post Reply