Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Bryn666
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Bryn666 »

rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 20:07
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:55
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:38

That's total nonsense and never happened.
You must have been asleep when Mark Drakeford mounted a full scale invasion of Shropshire and stormed several towns to keep the English out during the worst phases of the pandemic :wink:
Nah, that's happening in two years to provide a wholly in-Wales North-South rail link, as annexing Shropshire and Herefordshire actually works out cheaper than rebuilding the Aberystwyth-Caerfyrddin railway line. Welsh Govt expects the locals to rise up once they realise they'll get free prescriptions, free hospital parking and won't be led by a government made up of the kind of folks who play the arrogant officer class in episodes of "Sharpe" and "Hornblower"
Can you sign this blank piece of paper for no reason at all? I need a genuine Welsh person to countersign my asylum application in the future, they're onto me for having the name but not the blood.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Bomag »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:55
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:38
The only thing which I think should be reconsidered is dual language use for places in England, I read that one village near the border wanted to legally change their welsh name during COVID to ffyc Drakeford as they weren't allowed to use the main road as it was in Wales for a couple of 100 yards (may be an urban myth)
That's total nonsense and never happened.
You must have been asleep when Mark Drakeford mounted a full scale invasion of Shropshire and stormed several towns to keep the English out during the worst phases of the pandemic :wink:
I don't think several of my family were asleep when stopped from entering Wales by the plod when transiting across the border to go from England to England (A489 I think), even when they were exempt from English restrictions at the time. It may only happened a few times but they regularly were stopped and grilled on the A483. Whether the name change request was formal, or a joke based on frustration of the obstinately risk adverse, is not relevant. The point is that if cities outside the UK can change their English language name then why cannot english settlements change their welsh name?
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 15:44 ... the "English" parts of Wales ... the "Welsh" parts of Wales ....
I'm sure you didn't mean this literally as written. There are English-speaking and Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, but the people of both parts are most certainly Welsh (even if the only Welsh they know is the words to "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau"), and would be highly indignant should you suggest otherwise.

I think I'm with Bomag in questioning the utility of signing places in England in Welsh. If you are relying on the Welsh names for these places, the moment you cross the border into England you will be lost, as the Welsh names will disappear from signage. And while some of the names can be deduced (Briste, Llundain, Manceinion), others cannot easily (Yr Amwythig, Llanlieni, Rhydychen). Signing England as Lloegr is a different matter, since as soon as you reach the border, you have arrived at your destination.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by rhyds »

Bomag wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 00:19
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:55
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:38

That's total nonsense and never happened.
You must have been asleep when Mark Drakeford mounted a full scale invasion of Shropshire and stormed several towns to keep the English out during the worst phases of the pandemic :wink:
I don't think several of my family were asleep when stopped from entering Wales by the plod when transiting across the border to go from England to England (A489 I think), even when they were exempt from English restrictions at the time. It may only happened a few times but they regularly were stopped and grilled on the A483.
First off, there was always a "transit" provision in Welsh (and I assume English) lockdown rules for travel. If Dyfed-Powys police really had enough officers available to check on the small bit of the A489 you describe near Yr Ystog/Churchstoke then I really am surprised. As for the A483 at (I'm guessing) Llanymynech, I very much doubt there was any heavy handed enforcement there as it would be practically unworkable.
Bomag wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 00:19 Whether the name change request was formal, or a joke based on frustration of the obstinately risk adverse, is not relevant. The point is that if cities outside the UK can change their English language name then why cannot english settlements change their welsh name?
There's nothing stopping any city from requesting its name is changed in foreign languages (e.g. Kiev becoming Kyiv), however there's no binding requirement for said foreigners to actually take any notice of the change. It took many years for Iran to stop being Persia, and Constantinople also took a fair while to be dropped in favour if Istanbul. More recently there's the argument over Burma/Myanmar, with both names meaning the same place but the first is more often used by those who are unhappy at the current military regime there.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45 I think I'm with Bomag in questioning the utility of signing places in England in Welsh. If you are relying on the Welsh names for these places, the moment you cross the border into England you will be lost, as the Welsh names will disappear from signage. And while some of the names can be deduced (Briste, Llundain, Manceinion), others cannot easily (Yr Amwythig, Llanlieni, Rhydychen). Signing England as Lloegr is a different matter, since as soon as you reach the border, you have arrived at your destination.
Which is English exceptionalism at work.

Unless you're suggesting that the way every other country does it is wrong? For example, the French signposting "Ypres" is pointless because as soon as you cross the Belgian border it is "Ieper"? Or that the Italians shouldn't sign "Nizza" because as soon across the French border it no longer appears in that form? Or perhaps that the Irish shouldn't sign "Béal Feirste" or "Doire"?
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Steven wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:02
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45 I think I'm with Bomag in questioning the utility of signing places in England in Welsh. If you are relying on the Welsh names for these places, the moment you cross the border into England you will be lost, as the Welsh names will disappear from signage. And while some of the names can be deduced (Briste, Llundain, Manceinion), others cannot easily (Yr Amwythig, Llanlieni, Rhydychen). Signing England as Lloegr is a different matter, since as soon as you reach the border, you have arrived at your destination.
Which is English exceptionalism at work.

Unless you're suggesting that the way every other country does it is wrong? For example, the French signposting "Ypres" is pointless because as soon as you cross the Belgian border it is "Ieper"? Or that the Italians shouldn't sign "Nizza" because as soon across the French border it no longer appears in that form? Or perhaps that the Irish shouldn't sign "Béal Feirste" or "Doire"?
Well, that's for those nations to decide, quite honestly. I wouldn't presume to tell them what to do, but nor should their practice be the deciding factor for what Wales does. Horses for courses. The French sign in French only, the Italians in Italian only, but Wales signs in Welsh and English. It's not a precise comparison.
Last edited by Chris Bertram on Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 15:44 ... the "English" parts of Wales ... the "Welsh" parts of Wales ....
I'm sure you didn't mean this literally as written. There are English-speaking and Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, but the people of both parts are most certainly Welsh (even if the only Welsh they know is the words to "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau"), and would be highly indignant should you suggest otherwise.
To be fair it taking a good 24hrs before I'm "Brummie-Splained" my own post back to me is an improvement on your usual timescale. Given the language context of thread I'd assumed it was clear that I was talking about areas such as Sir Fynwy/Monmouthshire who often have monolingual English signs on their routes. Of course, as user NewportMonmouthshire would often assert, Monmouthshire isn't actually part of Wales*
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45 I think I'm with Bomag in questioning the utility of signing places in England in Welsh. If you are relying on the Welsh names for these places, the moment you cross the border into England you will be lost, as the Welsh names will disappear from signage. And while some of the names can be deduced (Briste, Llundain, Manceinion), others cannot easily (Yr Amwythig, Llanlieni, Rhydychen). Signing England as Lloegr is a different matter, since as soon as you reach the border, you have arrived at your destination.
First off, the whole point is that both names are signed, so you can easily work out that Yr Amwythig is Shrewsbury. Secondly, I'd like to know where you'll see a "Rhydychen" sign in Wales given the number of Primary Destinations on the A44 between the border and Oxford. Thridly, given the primary desitnation signage system and the generally limited number of cross-border routes I doubt there's more than a handful of placenames that are affected.


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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

rhyds wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:11
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 15:44 ... the "English" parts of Wales ... the "Welsh" parts of Wales ....
I'm sure you didn't mean this literally as written. There are English-speaking and Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, but the people of both parts are most certainly Welsh (even if the only Welsh they know is the words to "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau"), and would be highly indignant should you suggest otherwise.
To be fair it taking a good 24hrs before I'm "Brummie-Splained" my own post back to me is an improvement on your usual timescale. Given the language context of thread I'd assumed it was clear that I was talking about areas such as Sir Fynwy/Monmouthshire who often have monolingual English signs on their routes. Of course, as user NewportMonmouthshire would often assert, Monmouthshire isn't actually part of Wales*
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45 I think I'm with Bomag in questioning the utility of signing places in England in Welsh. If you are relying on the Welsh names for these places, the moment you cross the border into England you will be lost, as the Welsh names will disappear from signage. And while some of the names can be deduced (Briste, Llundain, Manceinion), others cannot easily (Yr Amwythig, Llanlieni, Rhydychen). Signing England as Lloegr is a different matter, since as soon as you reach the border, you have arrived at your destination.
First off, the whole point is that both names are signed, so you can easily work out that Yr Amwythig is Shrewsbury. Secondly, I'd like to know where you'll see a "Rhydychen" sign in Wales given the number of Primary Destinations on the A44 between the border and Oxford. Thridly, given the primary desitnation signage system and the generally limited number of cross-border routes I doubt there's more than a handful of placenames that are affected.

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Ha ha, we haven't seen NewportMonmouthshire around these parts for a good long time now, have we. There may be a few people in Monmouthshire east of the Usk who continue to consider it as a part of England, but that ship sailed in 1974 and I'm not sure that England wants it "back" (note that even if it was really ever English, it wasn't spared from Sunday pub closing in the years when that applied). There are a few English-only signs in the Wrexham area as well, BTW, I assume you'll have spotted them since you seem regularly to head up that way.

And yes, Rhydychen is probably not signed within Wales, but I do remember a Stryd Rhydychen/Oxford Street in Swansea. However, in contrast to the English/Scottish border, where the number of road crossings really is quite limited due to the mountainous terrain, the English/Welsh border is crossed by a significant number of roads, some of them repeatedly due to the way it zig-zags especially where it involves Shropshire and Herefordshire. So there are quite a few signs for Croesoswallt, Henffordd and Yr Amwythig, and Llanlieni is appearing on more signs now. I don't think I've seen one for Rhosan ar Wy yet, and I don't think I've driven in the right direction on A48 to see one for Caerloyw.

As I said to Steven, the final decision on this rests with the Welsh transport department, and they need to decide what works for them. Other countries' practice may inform what is done, of course.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by TS »

I've never understood the problem with having the same colour for both.

If I'm travelling to, say, Bournemouth, I follow signs for Bournemouth. If that sign also says Poole on it, I ignore it. It's not the place-name that I recognise.

Similarly, it makes no difference to me if travelling to Swansea, if a sign also points towards Abertawe. It is of no consequence whether Abertawe is the same place as Swansea or a different place like Poole is to Bournemouth. I simply follow signs for Swansea, as that is 'my' destination.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Ritchie333 »

Shopping in Oswestry Morrisons the other day, I was surprised to see bilingual signs in the store, and overheard two people speaking Welsh.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Ritchie333 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 07:26 Shopping in Oswestry Morrisons the other day, I was surprised to see bilingual signs in the store, and overheard two people speaking Welsh.
Croesoswallt/Oswestry is the nearest large town for a fair chunk of northern Powys, especially around Llanfyllin and Llansantffraid. Morriosns' old town centre location also had Welsh signage.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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TS wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 00:43 I've never understood the problem with having the same colour for both.

If I'm travelling to, say, Bournemouth, I follow signs for Bournemouth. If that sign also says Poole on it, I ignore it. It's not the place-name that I recognise.

Similarly, it makes no difference to me if travelling to Swansea, if a sign also points towards Abertawe. It is of no consequence whether Abertawe is the same place as Swansea or a different place like Poole is to Bournemouth. I simply follow signs for Swansea, as that is 'my' destination.
The idea of having different colours or fonts, depending on the language is that the brain can filter out irrelevant information quickly. Look at this sign. No fewer than 12 destination are mentioned plus a host of road numbers. Even if it were only in one language, the motorist would get information overload. Having it in two languages causes real problems. When I have driven in RoI, my brain filters out town names that are written in all upper-case letters.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by kennethmac2000 »

A few thoughts/questions here:
  • Does one accept that it makes sense for the Welsh strategic roads network to have a consistent approach to bilingual signage, rather than, say, signs on the M4 constantly changing format depending on whether one is in Monmouthshire, Newport, Cardiff, etc? (As, incidentally, is the case at the moment until all of the older signs are replaced and thus tidied up.)
  • If so, does one also accept that, to provide the optimal driver experience, it doesn't make sense for the format to flip around as one drives between the strategic roads network and principal areas which follow a different approach to the strategic roads network?
  • Finally, does one accept that, unlike the Welsh language, the English language does not need to make any effort to secure its future, and therefore that it is not unreasonable to give Welsh a bit of a 'leg up' (eg, the Welsh-first policy)? Further, even if one doesn't speak Welsh, doesn't the presence of the Welsh language in a genuinely widespread way (not just as a token gesture as arguably Gaelic is in most of Scotland and perhaps even Irish is in Ireland) make Wales a culturally more interesting and distinctive place, and a refreshing demonstration that it is possible for somewhere that is clearly also part of the (exceptionally monolingual) English-speaking world to keep another language alive alongside English?
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

Depends on whether you prioritise the utility of the signage on the road network above the "political" angle of deciding which language goes first.

This has been argued to death both here and elsewhere, and neither argument is a clear "winner" in its own right. However, the current state of play is that the Welsh government has decided that it's Welsh first everywhere from now on, with the right of the local councils to decide priority having been taken away from them.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 09:45
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 15:44 ... the "English" parts of Wales ... the "Welsh" parts of Wales ....
I'm sure you didn't mean this literally as written. There are English-speaking and Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, but the people of both parts are most certainly Welsh (even if the only Welsh they know is the words to "Mae hen wlad fy nhadau"), and would be highly indignant should you suggest otherwise.

... snip...
When my son was in infant school, one of his teachers was a Miss Thomas who was Welsh. At the start of the day they always had to greet her twice - once in English "Good morning Miss Thomas" and then to repeat the greeting in Welsh. I was a governor at the school and once, during a governor/teacher social evening I mentioned to her that she was a Welsh-speaker. She told me that she did not speak any Welsh (apart fom how to say "Good morning Miss Thomas"). I suspect that she lived in dread of a bilingual Welsh child arriving in the class and actually speaking to her in Welsh.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by kennethmac2000 »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 22:00 When my son was in infant school, one of his teachers was a Miss Thomas who was Welsh. At the start of the day they always had to greet her twice - once in English "Good morning Miss Thomas" and then to repeat the greeting in Welsh.
I hope nowadays they would greet her in Welsh first. 😉
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

kennethmac2000 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 15:08
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 22:00 When my son was in infant school, one of his teachers was a Miss Thomas who was Welsh. At the start of the day they always had to greet her twice - once in English "Good morning Miss Thomas" and then to repeat the greeting in Welsh.
I hope nowadays they would greet her in Welsh first. 😉
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 20:22
kennethmac2000 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 15:08
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 22:00 When my son was in infant school, one of his teachers was a Miss Thomas who was Welsh. At the start of the day they always had to greet her twice - once in English "Good morning Miss Thomas" and then to repeat the greeting in Welsh.
I hope nowadays they would greet her in Welsh first. 😉
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Peter Freeman »

Bilingual road signs in New Zealand:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/29/asia ... index.html
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by WHBM »

Many of the advancing bilingual signage approaches just come from politicians of the minor language, who have a "stuff you" attitude to those from what is often the opposite cultural group.

Elsewhere this would be called racism and decried.

It's notable it commonly just applies to signage and documentation produced by public authorities at someone else's expense. Commercial organisations know their customers better, and rather than strutting their stuff will produce their documents and speak with their customers in the relevant language. One shopkeeper in Wales we encountered would chat with locals in Welsh, but if a visitor then came in would say hello, pick up their language, and if as usual they were an English speaker (including those from Cardiff etc), both would continue in English - because it was "rude" to speak in front of someone when they could not understand.

Something the grand Hilton hotel in London could do with understanding when the well-uniformed reception staff discuss issues with your reservation in say Portuguese, and then one presents the results to you in English ...
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