Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

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Vierwielen
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Vierwielen »

rhyds wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:56
trickstat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:30
WHBM wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:07
Of course, that will divert all north-south Welsh traffic through England, up the A49.
Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
The fastest way from Cardiff to Caernarvon is M4 and A34 down towards Highclere Castle. He's in a hole in the ground somewhere around there

For Caernarfon, the route through Mid Wales via the A470 is still the best bet. M5/M6 is terrible around Birmingham and while the A49 is better, by now there's more places needing bypasses on that route than on the A470 (Hereford for example).
I checked on viaMichelin. The fastest route frm Caernarfon to Cardiff was "down the middle" taking 3h52 (263 km = 68 km/h) and the route via Shrewsbury was 4h35 (354 km = 77 km/h). That was leaving at 22:30 on a Sunday evening. (It might well change duringthe daytime).
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by the cheesecake man »

trickstat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:30 Isn't the fastest route between Cardiff and Caernarvon already via the M5, M6 and A55?
It may be, but what competent Welsh nationalist is going to admit going via England might be quicker, or that residents of North Wales are more likely to go to Liverpool or Manchester than Cardiff, or that Llandudno/Rhyl/Prestatyn get more visitors from North West England than from South Wales etc?
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Herned »

the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 13:32 It may be, but what competent Welsh nationalist is going to admit going via England might be quicker, or that residents of North Wales are more likely to go to Liverpool or Manchester than Cardiff, or that Llandudno/Rhyl/Prestatyn get more visitors from North West England than from South Wales etc?
Shhh!

In that vein, dualling Shrewsbury to Llangurig, or perhaps Worcester-Hereford-Llangurig would probably be economically better than a north-south route
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by danfw194 »

The Welsh Conservatives backed the Labour government's decision to ditch the Air link between Anglesey and Cardiff, so suggesting a north-south motorway seems somewhat at odds with that.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Chris Bertram »

Herned wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 18:44
the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 13:32 It may be, but what competent Welsh nationalist is going to admit going via England might be quicker, or that residents of North Wales are more likely to go to Liverpool or Manchester than Cardiff, or that Llandudno/Rhyl/Prestatyn get more visitors from North West England than from South Wales etc?
Shhh!

In that vein, dualling Shrewsbury to Llangurig, or perhaps Worcester-Hereford-Llangurig would probably be economically better than a north-south route
Worcester - Leominster - Rhayader - Llangurig - Aberystwyth perhaps?
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by JohnnyMo »

Politically motivated road schemes are rarely value for money. If the assembly wants this then it should be funded by raiding existing budgets within Wales not with fresh money from the UK government.

Also the schemes cancelled to find the money should be publicly available. I can't see any AM voting for this white elephant at the expense of a much needed bypass in their constituency.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by JohnnyMo »

danfw194 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 08:36 The Welsh Conservatives backed the Labour government's decision to ditch the Air link between Anglesey and Cardiff, so suggesting a north-south motorway seems somewhat at odds with that.
The airlink was replaced by a Holyhead to Cardiff train service.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by rhyds »

JohnnyMo wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 09:44
danfw194 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 08:36 The Welsh Conservatives backed the Labour government's decision to ditch the Air link between Anglesey and Cardiff, so suggesting a north-south motorway seems somewhat at odds with that.
The airlink was replaced by a Holyhead to Cardiff train service.
The air link was a waste of public money. It only really served Anglesey (and Bangor at a push) and was so unreliable that often the journey was made by taxi rather than aircraft. Its only benefit was that the amount of money it wasted was reasonably low.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 09:37
Herned wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 18:44
the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 13:32 It may be, but what competent Welsh nationalist is going to admit going via England might be quicker, or that residents of North Wales are more likely to go to Liverpool or Manchester than Cardiff, or that Llandudno/Rhyl/Prestatyn get more visitors from North West England than from South Wales etc?
Shhh!

In that vein, dualling Shrewsbury to Llangurig, or perhaps Worcester-Hereford-Llangurig would probably be economically better than a north-south route
Worcester - Leominster - Rhayader - Llangurig - Aberystwyth perhaps?
A fully dualled and grade-separated X with points at Cardiff, Swansea, Bangor and Chester would make a lot of sense.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 19:52 They might as well build a spur to the moon whilst they're at it.
Nah. Ireland is much nearer. :wink:
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Osthagen »

Although much more taxing feats of engineering have been achieved in Italy, France, the PRC and elsewhere, I don't think there's much call for a Wales-based N-S motorway. Partly because the idea that there's the population to support it is questionable at best, and also because the green lobby are delighted for us to be a third world country as far as transport is concerned (perhaps in other ways, too) and throw a fit at the very mention of a blue line on the map.

What really would be useful is a N-S D2 running either:
- along the A470 from Merthyr Tydfil norty to Llandudno.
- (credits to Owain on this one) north from Merthyr Tydfil along the A470 as far as the Gellilydan turnoff, after which it would head northwestwards along the A487 to Porthmadog and Caernarfon, joining the A55 near Bangor and the Menai crossing at Pont Brittania.

The latter route is your best bet as far as economics and environmental impact is concerned because it largely dodges the most mountainous areas of Snowdonia National Park; putting a dual carriageway across which would be needlessly costly and time consuming, and even the cooler heads within the green lobby would be less than pleased, plus doing so would serve one of the areas with the sparsest population density south of the Highland Boundary Faultline.
The Bangor route, on the other hand, would directly serve at least three towns of regional importance, and would be far better accoodating to traffic bound to and heading from the Holyhead ports.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Herned »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 09:37 Worcester - Leominster - Rhayader - Llangurig - Aberystwyth perhaps?
Hereford is a much bigger place and poorly served from both sides of the border... Llangurig to Aberystwyth would an interesting engineering challenge
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by KeithW »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 20:26 My cynic says the only reason the Severn Bridge tolls were axed was so Johnson could justify forcing the Newport Bypass on Wales (thus winning lots of English 2nd Home Owner Votes) by shifting the obvious M4 bottleneck 5 miles further west. Whereas I also think the WG have cut their nose off to spite their face a little bit in order to say "FU England, we make our own decisions here".

Basically a masterclass in why politicians should be prohibited from making decisions unless accompanied by a responsible adult.
There are 2 problems with that theory.

1) The tolls were scrapped in 2018 at a time when Boris Johnson was a backbench MP.
2) The decision to scrap the tolls was backed by the Welsh government, in fact they wanted the date they were tolled to be brought forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45467656 wrote: Wales' First Minister Carwyn Jones called for the toll, which is worth up to £10m a month for the government, to be scrapped straight away on 1 January 2018.
Getting back on topic a motorway is out of the question but more bypasses would help. At the northern end the Porthmadog and Caernarfon Bypasses have helped. In 2015 I drove from Aberaeron to Beaumaris and found Abersytwyth and Machynlleth were a real pain.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Owain »

Herned wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:30
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 09:37 Worcester - Leominster - Rhayader - Llangurig - Aberystwyth perhaps?
Hereford is a much bigger place and poorly served from both sides of the border... Llangurig to Aberystwyth would an interesting engineering challenge
Hereford is not that far from the end of the M50-A40/A449, so it's not that bad from certain directions.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by avtur »

I have very good personal reasons for wanting to see a fast and efficient road link between North and South Wales. I have strong personal interests in Cardiff and Caernarvon.

Given that the Welsh government have seen fit to restrict sections of motorway to 50mph, and that they are willing to pursue a nation wide 20mph limit on restricted roads.

Then I think the idea that there might ever be an efficient road link between North and South Wales is simply a matter of fantasy.

To my way of thinking the Welsh government is "anti" road to an almost suicidal level. The current Welsh Government way of thinking with regard to road development is a massive strangle hold on any economic development in Wales.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Chris Bertram »

Owain wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:57
Herned wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:30
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 09:37 Worcester - Leominster - Rhayader - Llangurig - Aberystwyth perhaps?
Hereford is a much bigger place and poorly served from both sides of the border... Llangurig to Aberystwyth would an interesting engineering challenge
Hereford is not that far from the end of the M50-A40/A449, so it's not that bad from certain directions.
Hereford is actually a pain in the arse to get to, perhaps indicated by the fact that the main road there from Worcester is, get it, a 4-digit numbered A-road (A4103), while Leominster gets the 2-digit connection (A44). Its best connections are to north and south via A49, and to the west and Wales via A465. None of these roads are brilliant. To reach it from M50 involves using B-roads.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by AAndy »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 22:56 Hereford is actually a pain in the arse to get to, perhaps indicated by the fact that the main road there from Worcester is, get it, a 4-digit numbered A-road (A4103), while Leominster gets the 2-digit connection (A44). Its best connections are to north and south via A49, and to the west and Wales via A465. None of these roads are brilliant. To reach it from M50 involves using B-roads.
Its not nice to get to from any direction is it, and once you get there it just feels so cumbersome to drive across too, here's my video of probably the best route north to south https://youtu.be/dyn9dwe01ME .

I do avoid Hereford at all costs.

As for the North south wales thing...The A470 should be kept S2 but 'straightened' at the bendy bits and given wide verges at the narrow bits...and a couple of gsjs wouldn't go amiss.

Bypasses should be considered for the few towns and villages that are encountered .



The most difficult section and the slowest part of the whole journey is Blaenau Ffestiniog and Betws y coed, so I would reroute via the A487A55 now that the Porthmadog & Caernarfon bypasses have been completed .
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 22:56
Owain wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:57
Herned wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:30
Hereford is a much bigger place and poorly served from both sides of the border... Llangurig to Aberystwyth would an interesting engineering challenge
Hereford is not that far from the end of the M50-A40/A449, so it's not that bad from certain directions.
Hereford is actually a pain in the arse to get to, perhaps indicated by the fact that the main road there from Worcester is, get it, a 4-digit numbered A-road (A4103), while Leominster gets the 2-digit connection (A44). Its best connections are to north and south via A49, and to the west and Wales via A465. None of these roads are brilliant. To reach it from M50 involves using B-roads.
When I worked in Worcester I had cause on one occasion to go to Hereford. I used the A4103 on the way there, and the A49-M50-M5 on the way back. There wasn't much difference in it, although I appreciate that I do drive faster than most on motorways!

What does strike me as odd about the A-road situation is that the A4103 has never been swapped with either of the more appropriate A44 or A465 numbers. The fact that the A465 goes to Bromyard is just ... odd.

From my childhood home just outside the Forest of Dean it was okay too - either A40/449 or A466 from Monmouth.
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by Herned »

KeithW wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 13:18 Getting back on topic a motorway is out of the question but more bypasses would help. At the northern end the Porthmadog and Caernarfon Bypasses have helped. In 2015 I drove from Aberaeron to Beaumaris and found Abersytwyth and Machynlleth were a real pain.
Aberystwyth does have a de facto bypass which is signed for through traffic; I would imagine that most of the time the vast majority of the traffic there is heading to the town rather than through, so a proper bypass wouldn't be very busy, as well as being quite a feat of engineering
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Re: Wales - North/South Motorway Proposal (Seriously!)

Post by ajuk »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 20:26 My cynic says the only reason the Severn Bridge tolls were axed was so Johnson could justify forcing the Newport Bypass on Wales (thus winning lots of English 2nd Home Owner Votes) by shifting the obvious M4 bottleneck 5 miles further west. Whereas I also think the WG have cut their nose off to spite their face a little bit in order to say "FU England, we make our own decisions here".

Basically a masterclass in why politicians should be prohibited from making decisions unless accompanied by a responsible adult.
That was May who did that.
Seems a bit much to build a whole motorway simply because you can't widen those tunnels. I wonder if those tunnels only being 2 lanes is the single biggest failure of infrastructure future proofing in the UK?
The M4 also goes to 2 lanes at the junction of Magor, that seems to cope and there's only one subsequent junction after that letting eastbound traffic on. How about just shut the WB on slip of that junction at peak hours, force that traffic to use the A48 and use the new road? How much cheaper would it be to fully grade separate the existing Newport bypass?
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