Speed limit on roads joining unadopted roads?

[Nathan_A_RF]

I was recently looking at some unadopted roads in Hastings and found this interesting setup. According to East Sussex County Council's adopted roads map, Old Roar Road is unadopted (unmarked), and these side roads including Tall Ash Drive are adopted (blue). Now, the only way to access these adopted cul-de-sacs is via Old Roar Road. At the end of Old Roar Road are 20 mph zone signs, and there are no speed limit signs at the junctions of the adopted cul-de-sacs or along them. So what is the legal speed limit on these cul-de-sacs? Is it 20 mph? Can an adopted road have a speed limit at all, meaning these cul-de-sacs are national speed limit (30 mph with street lights)?

[KeithW]

Given that they are inside a 20 zone and that there are repeaters on Old Roar Road I would assume the limit is 20. In any case given that they as narrow roads with cars parked on them I suspect it wouldnt be prudent to go even as fast as that.

This road in Marton (St Andrews Road) links Gunnergate Lane and Cambridge Avenue both of which are in the same 20 zone , there is no 20 sign on it or any of the side roads. There are however repeaters on Gunnergate Lane and Cambridge Avenue and nag signs that tell you how naughty you are if you exceed 20.

I think the unadopted status is only relevant as far as the dodgy road condition is a further incentive to keep your speed down.

[Rob590]

So the question really is about speed limits on privately owned roads.

Speed limits are set according to the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. That uses the standard definition found in law of roads in England and Wales as "any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes". In Scotland the definition is similar "any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means...)", though a later clause excludes ways which are footpaths only from the definition.

Therefore speed limits apply to private roads just as much as any public road.

As this is a 20 Zone repeaters are not required, so the limit is 20.

[Darren]

Therefore speed limits apply to private roads just as much as any public road.

In reality t's a grey area.

For example, the estate here:

https://goo.gl/maps/egDRrHJRi2xq3jhA7

is accessed from an NSL road. Note the lack of speed limit signs into the estate in 2009, as the roads hadn't been adopted then. It remained that way for several years, before some of the roads were adopted. There's now a 30 sign as you go in.

The locals asked for a 20 limit to be put in place, but the answer was that wasn't possible because not all the roads are adopted, hence the council has no power to impose a limit on them. The police have said they wouldn't be able to enforce a 20 limit either, hence it remains (as far as anyone is concerned) 30 throughout.

Similarly there's an adopted road here:

https://goo.gl/maps/K3QNZiaB5mHSMsM86

which carries on out of the estate (which is 30mph) for a good quarter mile as an adopted road. It then carries on, but is unadopted. The people who live up there tend to drive stupidly fast along it, and the police don't enforce any limits there. (They do, however, set up speed checks once a year or so on the main road nearby).

[Chris5156]

So the question really is about speed limits on privately owned roads.

An unadopted road is not a private road. I’m not sure which category the road in the OP falls into, but the question was about an unadopted road with adopted roads leading from it, not a private road!

[Rob590]

So the question really is about speed limits on privately owned roads.

An unadopted road is not a private road.

Oh interesting, I take my post back then! I presumed that by definition if the local highways authority won't have anything to do with it, then they don't own it so someone else must and therefore it would be a private road?

[KeithW]

Oh interesting, I take my post back then! I presumed that by definition if the local highways authority won't have anything to do with it, then they don't own it so someone else must and therefore it would be a private road?

No , there are lots of unadopted roads where I lived in Kent which are public roads and some oddities where part of the road is adopted and the rest is not - see this example

Blenheim Road - Unadopted section
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9837724 ... authuser=0

Adopted section
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9838512 ... authuser=0

The builder of the unadopted section went bust and the council wanted an exorbitant amount of money to adopt it, as I recall it worked out at £25,000 per house in 1980, so the residents basically told them to stuff it where the sun didn't shine. Its not a high traffic road and every few years they get a contractor in.

Now this is a Private Road which is owned by EdF Energy
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9336338 ... authuser=0

Close by is this road owned by the Ministry of Defence
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9463353 ... authuser=0

When there is shooting on the range there will usually be a military vehicle blocking the road. AT guns, heavy machine guns and civilian traffic dont mix well

[Barkstar]

It sounds like there maybe a case for some clarification in the Highway Code and to local authorities as there are going to be more and more suburban estates that are unadopted.
Developers, having been leaned on by government to stop selling new properties leasehold have come up with a new ruse to keep their profits up. They don't request the estate roads be adopted and so can charge an annual fee to all properties for the maintenance of them and pavement, lighting verges etc.

[KeithW]

It sounds like there maybe a case for some clarification in the Highway Code and to local authorities as there are going to be more and more suburban estates that are unadopted.
Developers, having been leaned on by government to stop selling new properties leasehold have come up with a new ruse to keep their profits up. They don't request the estate roads be adopted and so can charge an annual fee to all properties for the maintenance of them and pavement, lighting verges etc.

Which could bite them as other organisations including local councils, a management company or residents committee may provide a better deal, that said responsible developers will create a road bond that pays for the works required for adoption, that was certainly the case with my 1996 new build. I can guarantee that I made darned sure this was in the paperwork when I signed up to buy it. In any case lenders are reluctant to approve mortgages without such a bond. If it isn't covered then don't buy the house.

The Highway Code is of course completely irrelevant here. The council has the duty to ensure the development is fit for purpose as part of the planning procedure. In the case I mentioned a little misunderstanding called WW2 got in the way. The coast became a prohibited area with pill boxes and barbed wire entanglements on the beach. The civil population was evacuated.



By the time they were able to return the roads were in less than pristine condition

The military did leave one keepsake behind - a section of Mulberry Harbour that got away.

[WHBM]

I understand that a speed limit is not in any way legally enforceable without a TRO, and a TRO cannot be applied except by the relevant highway authority. As there isn't one on an unadopted road, no legal speed control.

This incidentally does not stop the police applying "driving without due care and attention" for any user of a motor vehicle.

One substantial private commercial development I know of requires permits, with keepers, of parked vehicles, so they have a database of regulars there. They also do their own speed checks, and although not legally enforceable or fineable the normal way, can pull the parking permit of a vehicle found speeding - generally after one warning, which goes to the vehicle owner at their office address, plus a copy to their premises manager which ends up in people's HR files. They do the same to any badged commercial vehicle which speeds on the main access road when visiting the premises, saying they will have their security staff ban all further access by that company. All works very well.

[KeithW]

I understand that a speed limit is not in any way legally enforceable without a TRO, and a TRO cannot be applied except by the relevant highway authority. As there isn't one on an unadopted road, no legal speed control.

This incidentally does not stop the police applying "driving without due care and attention" for any user of a motor vehicle.

One substantial private commercial development I know of requires permits, with keepers, of parked vehicles, so they have a database of regulars there. They also do their own speed checks, and although not legally enforceable or fineable the normal way, can pull the parking permit of a vehicle found speeding - generally after one warning, which goes to the vehicle owner at their office address, plus a copy to their premises manager which ends up in people's HR files. They do the same to any badged commercial vehicle which speeds on the main access road when visiting the premises, saying they will have their security staff ban all further access by that company. All works very well.

On public roads in the absence of a TRO the normal rules applying to a built up area apply.

Vehicles can be barred from private roads on a whim, as for the copies sent to the employer I suspect many go straight in the bin, especially at the moment when there is a shortage of HGV drivers. ICI used to do something similar but then on the Wilton Site you could could be looking at a 1.5 mile walk from the gate to the plant you were working on. Not fun in winter when the sleet is blowing in off the north sea. If the vehicle was a road tanker collecting petrol from the North Tees Refinery to refill the tanks of one of the ICI branded petrol stations expect a rather displeased filling station owner to make a call.

As I recall the only people actually barred from the site were ICI employees. On a site that covered 6 square miles expecting the man on one of the three gates to figure it out for deliveries was unreasonable. At the end of the day this was long before ANPR was around. But then my idea of substantial probably differs from yours.

Wilton West Gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5803461 ... authuser=0

East Gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6057501 ... authuser=0

South Gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5741889 ... authuser=0

South East Gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.58126,- ... authuser=0

[WHBM]

Yes, but you are speaking about own staff on an industrial site. Mine is a large business park with an owner and separate commercial tenants, who get car park permits for their staff.

Never a better story than one from the NASA days of the US moonshot. At the Houston control centre one of the key flight controllers consistently parked where not allowed near the front door. After multiple warnings their site vehicle access was withdrawn for a week. Next Monday, they parked in the shopping centre opposite. Opening up their horse trailer (this is Texas), out with their horse, saddle up, cantered up the approach road past the vehicle checkpoint, and the horse spend the day tied to the railings, of course near the front door

[KeithW]

Yes, but you are speaking about own staff on an industrial site. Mine is a large business park with an owner and separate commercial tenants, who get car park permits for their staff.

Never a better story than one from the NASA days of the US moonshot. At the Houston control centre one of the key flight controllers consistently parked where not allowed near the front door. After multiple warnings their site vehicle access was withdrawn for a week. Next Monday, they parked in the shopping centre opposite. Opening up their horse trailer (this is Texas), out with their horse, saddle up, cantered up the approach road past the vehicle checkpoint, and the horse spend the day tied to the railings, of course near the front door

I am talking about Wilton Site which when I worked there was all owned by ICI but is now owned by Wilton International which has multiple tenants and includes the old ICI office block which is now a commercial business renting out suites of offices,

The same basic rules apply. This is private property, you need a pass to get in through the gate but if you flout the rules regarding driving on the site then your car pass can be withdrawn and you get to take the 63 bus to the gate instead. Its a LONG walk to much of the site but people have been known to take a folding bicycle. I doubt they would let you ride a horse in, animals on petrochemical sites are not a good idea.

The offices however are only about 250 m from the bus stop.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.574185, ... authuser=0

Now I can give you one site where security was REALLY strict, HMS Vulcan at Dounreay was the test bed for the RN nuclear submarine reactor, the gate guards there Royal Marines who carried 7.62 mm automatic rifles.
https://www.google.com/maps/@58.57544,- ... authuser=0

Its been defueled now I believe and is decommissioning so they probably wouldn't shoot you, just let the radiation get you

[Chris5156]

So the question really is about speed limits on privately owned roads.

An unadopted road is not a private road.

Oh interesting, I take my post back then! I presumed that by definition if the local highways authority won't have anything to do with it, then they don't own it so someone else must and therefore it would be a private road?

No, ownership of a road has very little to do with who maintains it or whether it is open to the public. Most roads are sitting on land that is privately owned, but the existence of a public right of way is overlaid on that, which effectively removes all the rights of the landowner.

SABRE has a wiki article here that explains some of the issues, and I wrote a blog post about unadopted roads a little while ago here which covers some of the ground too.

The short answer is it's really complicated and very little of it is what you expect!

[Bryn666]

Also just because a road is unadopted does not mean it can't have TROs applied to it.

As Chris says, it's a massively complex mess and it needs some serious reform. The current maintenance and ownership regime of infrastructure via fragmented parochial councils is unworkable.

[Octaviadriver]

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, we lived on Shrewsbury Avenue in Market Harborough which is unadopted. The main road at the end of the avenue (it was the A6 when we were there but is now unclassified) is a 40mph limit, but Shrewsbury Avenue has a 30 limit. I can't imagine anyone has ever been prosecuted for exceeding the limit, but if they did they'd probably damage their suspension.
https://goo.gl/maps/7FS5A3XJ3kQB8ZTf8

[Phil]

The roads in this estate to the north of the A259 have never been adopted and as such you got the daft situation where the wider A259 is 40mph but the estate roads which have never been adopted* are all derestricted!

*(and not on streetview)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.76043 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.76372 ... a=!3m1!1e3

[jgharston]

Similarly there's an adopted road here:
https://goo.gl/maps/K3QNZiaB5mHSMsM86

Interesting to note "Coronation Drive" to the side there. I wonder if there'll be a burst of new roads similarly named this year.