50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

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Vierwielen
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

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SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 21:50
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 21:38 What is PaD? I've driven in France, admittedly not near Paris, and never heard of this.
Priorité à droite, or priority to the right. Not as prevalent as it used to be, but still present in sometimes seemingly random locations. Beware the crossed out diamond sign or X rather than + orientated crossroads sign.

If you've driven in France and not been aware of the rule, you're lucky not to have been wiped out by a car emerging without stopping from some minor side turn.

Personally, given it's relatively rare use now, I think it's time the PaD rule was abolished altogether in favour of marked priorities.
I noticed that in Germany they ahd all but abolished PaD except in 50 km/h residential areas - such as this one, a few metres from where I had a flat. Effectively, one stopped at each junction. and was VERY effective in enforcing a 50 km/h speed limit. For this reason, I suspect that PaD will remain on the statute books for a long time.
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2024 18:38
SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 21:50
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 21:38 What is PaD? I've driven in France, admittedly not near Paris, and never heard of this.
Priorité à droite, or priority to the right. Not as prevalent as it used to be, but still present in sometimes seemingly random locations. Beware the crossed out diamond sign or X rather than + orientated crossroads sign.

If you've driven in France and not been aware of the rule, you're lucky not to have been wiped out by a car emerging without stopping from some minor side turn.

Personally, given it's relatively rare use now, I think it's time the PaD rule was abolished altogether in favour of marked priorities.
I noticed that in Germany they ahd all but abolished PaD except in 50 km/h residential areas - such as this one, a few metres from where I had a flat. Effectively, one stopped at each junction. and was VERY effective in enforcing a 50 km/h speed limit. For this reason, I suspect that PaD will remain on the statute books for a long time.
There's a similar type of junction in Ansdell near Lytham, Lancashire.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7423854 ... FQAw%3D%3D
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Vierwielen
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

Post by Vierwielen »

Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 21:15
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2024 18:38
SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 21:50
Priorité à droite, or priority to the right. Not as prevalent as it used to be, but still present in sometimes seemingly random locations. Beware the crossed out diamond sign or X rather than + orientated crossroads sign.

If you've driven in France and not been aware of the rule, you're lucky not to have been wiped out by a car emerging without stopping from some minor side turn.

Personally, given it's relatively rare use now, I think it's time the PaD rule was abolished altogether in favour of marked priorities.
I noticed that in Germany they ahd all but abolished PaD except in 50 km/h residential areas - such as this one, a few metres from where I had a flat. Effectively, one stopped at each junction. and was VERY effective in enforcing a 50 km/h speed limit. For this reason, I suspect that PaD will remain on the statute books for a long time.
There's a similar type of junction in Ansdell near Lytham, Lancashire.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7423854 ... FQAw%3D%3D
But if the council runs out of money and fails to repaint the road markings, then if it was raining, the priority markings would no longer be visible. In the case of Germany, in the absence of any marking,the vehicle on the right (ie the side road) has priority.
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

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Priorité à droite exists in most continental countries AFAICS, if in some cases more in the breach than the observance.

Norway is particularly keen on it, with roads with fairly high (>50 km/h) limits having it that elsewhere would have the yellow diamond and marked priority.

Personally I think it is more than time to abolish it, especially in contexts where in practice the population doesn't follow it. This is true of Sweden, for example, where people are perfectly happy to drive at a suitable low speed to take account of pedestrians crossing and will tend to yield to NMUs even in contexts where the law gives the motorist priority.

Another problem is that it sits poorly with the rule present in many jurisdictions that requires vehicles turning into or out of a junction to give way to pedestrians and cyclists who are travelling straight on. If I am cycling along a cycle path parallel to a road with a crossed-through diamond, which rule applies when I get to a side road on the right? PàD, in which case I need to give way to traffic emerging from the right, or the rule described above (svängningsregeln or "turning rule" in Swedish), in which I have priority over any traffic wishing to cross my path?

There are other ways of achieving the same traffic-calming aim that PàD supposedly offers, not least painting pedestrian crossings at junctions that require drivers to yield.

The general population's observance of PàD in Sweden is very low, yet Sweden tends to score towards the top of road safety rankings in Europe, especially when you remove from the equation accidents associated with rural S2s and large wildlife, which aren't really relevant to urban traffic planning in any form. There surely must come a Canute-and-the-waves moment when the authorities bow to the inevitable and accept that they must form the rules around what the population will accept, especially when the population's behaviour is not notably counterproductive, rather than just banging the same drum into the void.
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

Post by Owain »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 14:41 Priorité à droite exists in most continental countries AFAICS, if in some cases more in the breach than the observance...
The only time I've ever knowingly encountered it anywhere was when I went to Turin with roadtester.

We were driving to the Automotoretro extravaganza - still the best classic car show I've ever attended - when a distinguished-looking Italian emerged from a side road and we both had to emergency stop. He looked at me very sternly, and I waved him out. It was actually roadtester who observed that it was probably PaD.

I've never had that happen anywhere else in Italy, where STOP signs or traffic signals usually make it obvious what to do (even if everybody ignores them).
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

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Owain wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 20:04
FosseWay wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 14:41 Priorité à droite exists in most continental countries AFAICS, if in some cases more in the breach than the observance...
The only time I've ever knowingly encountered it anywhere was when I went to Turin with roadtester.

We were driving to the Automotoretro extravaganza - still the best classic car show I've ever attended - when a distinguished-looking Italian emerged from a side road and we both had to emergency stop. He looked at me very sternly, and I waved him out. It was actually roadtester who observed that it was probably PaD.

I've never had that happen anywhere else in Italy, where STOP signs or traffic signals usually make it obvious what to do (even if everybody ignores them).
I'd already experienced it a couple of times at that point, in France and Switzerland, but there was a PaD roundabout coming off the A1 autostrada del Sol at Florence heading for Siena. The roundabout here is now give way to vehicles on the roundabout.

One thing I think has been highlighted on SABRE before is in France is PaD being concreted in with signage.
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

Post by Bryn666 »

Vierwielen wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:19
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 21:15
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2024 18:38
I noticed that in Germany they ahd all but abolished PaD except in 50 km/h residential areas - such as this one, a few metres from where I had a flat. Effectively, one stopped at each junction. and was VERY effective in enforcing a 50 km/h speed limit. For this reason, I suspect that PaD will remain on the statute books for a long time.
There's a similar type of junction in Ansdell near Lytham, Lancashire.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7423854 ... FQAw%3D%3D
But if the council runs out of money and fails to repaint the road markings, then if it was raining, the priority markings would no longer be visible. In the case of Germany, in the absence of any marking,the vehicle on the right (ie the side road) has priority.
Given four way give ways are unlawful in the UK that's the least of their worries.
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Re: 50km/h speed limit on the Péripherique

Post by Vierwielen »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 22:57
Vierwielen wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:19
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 21:15

There's a similar type of junction in Ansdell near Lytham, Lancashire.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7423854 ... FQAw%3D%3D
But if the council runs out of money and fails to repaint the road markings, then if it was raining, the priority markings would no longer be visible. In the case of Germany, in the absence of any marking,the vehicle on the right (ie the side road) has priority.
Given four way give ways are unlawful in the UK that's the least of their worries.
Unless there is a big dot in the middle - we call them mini-roundabouts.
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