A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

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A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 20:56

Is the A661 road through Wetherby a Primary Route or not. Some maps show this road as a Primary Route (coloured green) and others show it as a Non Primary Route (coloured red). The road isn't even signposted as the A661 at the A58/A168 roundabout where the A661 starts at Wetherby, it's only signposted as a local road into Wetherby town centre with no road number on the sign. Also it doesn't need to be a Primary Route as there's a good alternative via the A1(M)/A59/A658 that avoids going through the centre of Wetherby. I was wondering if anyone has any information on this. Also i'm not sure if the A58 from Leeds to Wetherby is Primary or not as maps vary on this road too.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Was92now625 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 21:51

Streetmap shows one Primary route into and one out of Wetherby i.e. A58 and A661. But the route to M1 is not Primary !

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Robert Kilcoyne » Wed Jun 14, 2017 22:33

As drivers on the southbound A1(M) heading for Leeds are now encouraged to use the A1(M) at least as far as the A64 Bramham exit there does not appear to be a good reason to keep the A58 as a primary route between Leeds and Wetherby.

This may be a legacy of the period before the A1 was upgraded to motorway around Wetherby when the A58 terminated on the A1 at a junction northeast of the old roundabout but south of the current Junction 46 close to the racecourse and the East Leeds Link Road had not been opened, hence traffic coming from Newcastle, Teesside etc. on the A1 would have used either the A58 or the A64 to enter Leeds.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Stevie D » Wed Jun 14, 2017 22:55

My understanding was that A58 was downgraded to non-primary in 2009 when the A1(M) was completed between Wetherby and Hook Moor and traffic for Leeds was signposted via A1(M) and A64, but the A661 was not – that is how it is shown on A-Z maps. But the signage doesn't particularly back this up – most of the signs on the A661 outside Wetherby town centre are non-primary, and most of the signs on the A58 are primary apart from at Wetherby Grange and a particularly confused example at Sheepscar.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by wrinkly » Wed Jun 14, 2017 22:56

Also the A58 is still shown as primary on OS maps.

It's a disgrace that there is no definitive map or list of primary routes.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Paul » Thu Jun 15, 2017 20:57

The signed alternative makes the journey longer. Going through Wetherby or, better, leaving one junction along and taking back roads through Kirk Deighton, is fine.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by stu531 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 21:31

I use the A661 from Harrogate to Wetherby most days. It's a cacophony of mixed signage, as mentioned here; Spofforth has white signs prior to the roundabout, but green signs on the roundabout. As Paul mentioned, the local roads through North Deighton and Kirk Deighton allow you to bypass Wetherby completely.

The A59/J47 route, especially if you're coming up from the south towards Harrogate, is a long way round.

In a parallel universe, the A661 exists from J46/Wetherby Services - as a dual carriageway - and cuts over fields to join the A658 by the Kestrel Roundabout. It'd then be a natural primary route.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos » Fri Jun 16, 2017 22:35

If the part of the A168 between the A1(M) junction 45 and the A58/A661/A168 roundabout at Wetherby is not a Primary Route (as shown on OS maps) and the A58 from Leeds to Wetherby is also not a Primary Route but the A661 through Wetherby is a Primary Route then the A661 Primary Route would end at the A58/A661/A168 roundabout at Wetherby meaning it doesn't link up with any other Primary Routes. Also Primary Routes should be the recommended through routes for all vehicles so if this was the case then the A661 would be signposted at the roundabout at Wetherby which it isn't, the road is simply signposted as a local road into Wetherby town centre and doesn't even have the road number on the sign. The A58 is shown as a Primary Route on AA atlases and OS maps but Non Primary on other maps and atlases. Another interesting thing is that there's no need for the A59 Primary Route that goes through Knaresborough as there's a perfectly good alternative with the A658 and A661 to Harrogate.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by NICK 647063 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 22:59

and most of the signs on the A58 are primary apart from at Wetherby Grange and a particularly confused example at Sheepscar.
Yes the Sheepscar signage in Leeds looks confused but basically Wetherby is signed on non primary but the A1(M) the north is on primary as even this is signed back down the ring road to use the A64 to Bramham.

I think the idea is that both the A661 and A58 are non primary but signage and mapping is very much lacking, I know at J46 on the A1(M) Leeds (A64) is the suggested route, as Leeds is so big you also have the option of using the M1 and east leeds link road although I always stick to the A64 as its 4 miles shorter.

The other thing I find strange is the weight restriction on the A58 at Wetherby its signed but at the Leeds ring road end no mention of a weight restriction north, although further into Leeds the A58 is weight restricted with the A64 in and out of Leeds suffering all the HGV's this was very much the case well before the M1 east of Leeds was built, I know coming out of Leeds on the A64 York Road you see many black signs with the truck symbol on and Wetherby A1(M) like here https://goo.gl/maps/pT8wqY4abh32

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Robert Kilcoyne » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:34

roadphotos wrote:Also Primary Routes should be the recommended through routes for all vehicles so if this was the case then the A661 would be signposted at the roundabout at Wetherby which it isn't, the road is simply signposted as a local road into Wetherby town centre and doesn't even have the road number on the sign. The A58 is shown as a Primary Route on AA atlases and OS maps but Non Primary on other maps and atlases. Another interesting thing is that there's no need for the A59 Primary Route that goes through Knaresborough as there's a perfectly good alternative with the A658 and A661 to Harrogate.
Before the A1 bypassed the Wetherby Grange roundabout, the A661 was signposted Wetherby, Harrogate. I think that Harrogate traffic would still have been signed to leave the A1 when the new slip road was opened from the dual carriageway to the Wetherby Grange roundabout (before the A1 was upgraded to motorway).

The A59 could be rerouted along the A658 as far as the Kestrel roundabout and then via the A661 into Harrogate. The A6055 could be extended from Knaresborough through Starbeck to the Empress Roundabout and the part of the A59 east of Knaresborough could become the B6165.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos » Sat Jun 17, 2017 14:51

At last some sensible planning

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by NICK 647063 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 19:37

On the subject of Knaresborough I have never understood why the A59 still passes through and why it's primary! If you are leaving Harrogate all traffic for York and A1(M) is signed down the A661 then onto the A658 and the same the other way with the A59 only signed knaresborough, so with knaresborough not been a primary destination how can the A59 remain primary?

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Stevie D » Tue Jun 20, 2017 20:23

NICK 647063 wrote:On the subject of Knaresborough I have never understood why the A59 still passes through and why it's primary! If you are leaving Harrogate all traffic for York and A1(M) is signed down the A661 then onto the A658 and the same the other way with the A59 only signed knaresborough, so with knaresborough not been a primary destination how can the A59 remain primary?
It is an anomaly – I have long suspected that it is to encourage some through-A59 traffic to go through Knaresborough and balance the load, reducing pressure on Kestrel and Woodlands, which are badly congested at busy times.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos » Wed Jun 21, 2017 16:52

There are other examples where the road has remained a Primary Route even though the primary destination is signed on a different route. A good example is the A1065 from the A11 at Mildenhall to the A134 at Mundford (via Brandon). Swaffham is the Primary destination and it used to be signed along the A1065 from the A11 at Mildenhall but signs now tell you to continue up the A11 to Thetford then along the A134 to join the A1065 at Mundford to continue to Swaffham. Newmarket is the primary destination when travelling south along the A1065 from Swaffham and used to be signed through Brandon (A1065) but when you get to the A134 at Mundford the signs now route you along the A134 and down the A11 to Mildenhall avoiding the A1065 through Brandon. Despite this the A1065 through Brandon has remained a Primary Route. This could be a good topic of conversation and I'm sure it must have been raised before. I'm sure there are other examples of this happening in other parts of the country.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by stu531 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 00:21

Going back to this, and I'm not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but the A661 forms a perculiar and unnecessary path not only south of Wetherby, but also to the north. Check this signage.

This was taken in June 16, and I can't remember if it's ben changed of late. I do remember the signs used to be primary. Essentially it means the A661 spurs off to the north at the roundabout by the bridge, and travels north back up the High Street and North Street, before turning east up York Road. As I remember, it used to stop at the A1 junction as it was, before continuing as the B1224.

Wetherby's High Street should all be B6164. York Road should now be unclassified, as the B1224 now occupies the new route between the racecourse and A1(M) J46.

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 16:53

Unfortunately route numbering is not something most consultants designing roads care about... hence the A6055 reappearing where it shouldn't and the other anomalies like the B384 in Birmingham.

They genuinely believe that Sat Navs will guide you so why bother.
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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by NICK 647063 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 17:39

Going back to this, and I'm not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but the A661 forms a perculiar and unnecessary path not only south of Wetherby, but also to the north. Check this signage.

This was taken in June 16, and I can't remember if it's ben changed of late. I do remember the signs used to be primary. Essentially it means the A661 spurs off to the north at the roundabout by the bridge, and travels north back up the High Street and North Street, before turning east up York Road. As I remember, it used to stop at the A1 junction as it was, before continuing as the B1224.

Wetherby's High Street should all be B6164. York Road should now be unclassified, as the B1224 now occupies the new route between the racecourse and A1(M) J46.
That is certainly a signage error as you state the high street is the B6164 and York Road is unclassified.

Its actually amazing how many signage errors are about, here is one I noticed in nearby Knaresborough https://goo.gl/maps/iJicqnqyWV52 as you can see it states the A59 is the A61 yet the A61 is over 3 miles away in Harrogate!

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by stu531 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 21:01

Just to check this out, I found a 1975 OS Landranger map with the A661 actually following these routes.

Here's the map.

Note where the route of the A661 is - precisely in the location that works with the signposts.

Looks very different now but the signage in the area would tell us otherwise...

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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by ForestChav » Fri Oct 06, 2017 21:29

NICK 647063 wrote:
Going back to this, and I'm not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere, but the A661 forms a perculiar and unnecessary path not only south of Wetherby, but also to the north. Check this signage.

This was taken in June 16, and I can't remember if it's ben changed of late. I do remember the signs used to be primary. Essentially it means the A661 spurs off to the north at the roundabout by the bridge, and travels north back up the High Street and North Street, before turning east up York Road. As I remember, it used to stop at the A1 junction as it was, before continuing as the B1224.

Wetherby's High Street should all be B6164. York Road should now be unclassified, as the B1224 now occupies the new route between the racecourse and A1(M) J46.
That is certainly a signage error as you state the high street is the B6164 and York Road is unclassified.

Its actually amazing how many signage errors are about, here is one I noticed in nearby Knaresborough https://goo.gl/maps/iJicqnqyWV52 as you can see it states the A59 is the A61 yet the A61 is over 3 miles away in Harrogate!
That section of the A59 isn't primary either, on the sign opposite anyway...
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Re: A661 at Wetherby (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Stevie D » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:24

ForestChav wrote:That section of the A59 isn't primary either, on the sign opposite anyway...
I wouldn't pay much attention to that, there isn't a single sign at that junction that is even close to being correct. All the evidence I've seen is that, contrary to what you would expect for a bypassed route, the A59 through Knaresborough remains primary.

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