MoT 1922 map Carlisle

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Liam Whitcher
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MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by Liam Whitcher »

Hello. I just stumbled upon this site yesterday. I am researching U3077, Ainstable, Carlisle in order to try and keep this "green lane" open for 4x4 and motorbikes. I found the MoT 1922 of Carlisle. The road is shown. Very useful, thanks to whoever scanned and uploaded it.

Does anyone have a scan of the title page, introduction and key etc please? Maybe the same for one of the other MoT maps if not Carlisle version.?
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Steven
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Re: MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by Steven »

Can I ask what you mean by "the introduction"?

A copy of one of the title pages can be seen on the Roaders' Digest: The SABRE Wiki.

OS Ministry of Transport Road Map
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From the SABRE Wiki: OS Ministry of Transport Road Map :


The Ministry of Transport Road Map (colloqually known as MoT Maps) series were the official maps to show classified roads, following their publication by the Ministry of Transport on 1st April, 1923. As such, they are possibly the most important resource documenting the early days of road numbering in Great Britain.

The equivalent mapping in Northern Ireland was the Road Map of Northern Ireland


[[File:MoT map key 1922-23.JPG|thumb|right|1922-23 edition

... Read More
Liam Whitcher
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Re: MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by Liam Whitcher »

Steven wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:42 Can I ask what you mean by "the introduction"?

A copy of one of the title pages can be seen on the Roaders' Digest: The SABRE Wiki.

OS Ministry of Transport Road Map
Hello Steven, thanks for replying.

I have this written down "results of the Classification of Roads in Great Britain carried out by the Minister of Transport under Section 17(2) of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919" but can't locate where I saw it exactly.

I think that the MoT 1922 Map of Roads (Carlisle) could be the clinching document for U3077 vehicle use as the landowner is playing up and trying to keep vehicles off his land. It would help if I had an original MoT or OS document with the above quote.

From the SABRE Wiki: OS Ministry of Transport Road Map :


The Ministry of Transport Road Map (colloqually known as MoT Maps) series were the official maps to show classified roads, following their publication by the Ministry of Transport on 1st April, 1923. As such, they are possibly the most important resource documenting the early days of road numbering in Great Britain.

The equivalent mapping in Northern Ireland was the Road Map of Northern Ireland


[[File:MoT map key 1922-23.JPG|thumb|right|1922-23 edition

... Read More
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Chris5156
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Re: MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by Chris5156 »

Liam Whitcher wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 13:24 Hello Steven, thanks for replying.

I have this written down "results of the Classification of Roads in Great Britain carried out by the Minister of Transport under Section 17(2) of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919" but can't locate where I saw it exactly.

I think that the MoT 1922 Map of Roads (Carlisle) could be the clinching document for U3077 vehicle use as the landowner is playing up and trying to keep vehicles off his land. It would help if I had an original MoT or OS document with the above quote.
I'm intrigued to know what you hope a 1922 MOT map will show you with regard to this road. U3077 is not a classified road (the "U" stands for "Unclassified") and would not have been allocated its number in 1922 or for several decades afterwards. The number is a local authority designation for maintenance purposes - hence the Ministry, and its successors, did not allocate it and would never have marked it on classification maps, and it is not in any sense a "classified" road.

If that road appears at all on an MOT map circa 1922, all it will prove is that the road existed in 1922. The MOT maps are simply standard OS maps of the time, with an extra layer of red and green over-printed to mark and label A- and B-roads. Since your road is not an A- or B- road, you'll simply be looking at the road as it was shown by the Ordnance Survey in 1922.
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KeithW
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Re: MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Aug 26, 2018 09:25
Liam Whitcher wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 13:24 Hello Steven, thanks for replying.

I have this written down "results of the Classification of Roads in Great Britain carried out by the Minister of Transport under Section 17(2) of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919" but can't locate where I saw it exactly.

I think that the MoT 1922 Map of Roads (Carlisle) could be the clinching document for U3077 vehicle use as the landowner is playing up and trying to keep vehicles off his land. It would help if I had an original MoT or OS document with the above quote.
I'm intrigued to know what you hope a 1922 MOT map will show you with regard to this road. U3077 is not a classified road (the "U" stands for "Unclassified") and would not have been allocated its number in 1922 or for several decades afterwards. The number is a local authority designation for maintenance purposes - hence the Ministry, and its successors, did not allocate it and would never have marked it on classification maps, and it is not in any sense a "classified" road.

If that road appears at all on an MOT map circa 1922, all it will prove is that the road existed in 1922. The MOT maps are simply standard OS maps of the time, with an extra layer of red and green over-printed to mark and label A- and B-roads. Since your road is not an A- or B- road, you'll simply be looking at the road as it was shown by the Ordnance Survey in 1922.
I know I am a little late to this conversation but I have some interest in these matters having been involved in similar issues in Cambridgeshire and North Yorkshire.

The management and classification of such routes is of course a matter for the County Council and they keep a register of all byways including Byways Open to All (BOAT) which of course includes Motorised vehicles

In this case the most relevant documents I could find were

The Survey Sheet
http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/elibrary/Cont ... 4334683714

The Cumbria Countryside Access
UCR and BOAT Survey Form for U3077
http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/elibrary/Cont ... 4334683035

These documents are about as definitive as you can find and the Boat Survey Form indicates it was last inspected in 2016
Liam Whitcher
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Re: MoT 1922 map Carlisle

Post by Liam Whitcher »

This is a very old thread, apologies not to reply before.

The landowner where the U3077 is situated was a sheep and cattle farmer. They had apparently had trouble with motor vehicles upsetting the animals and had tried to hide the fact that the track was in fact a Public Highway. It is recorded on Cumbria CC maps and Eden District Council lists but for some reason (above?) some of the locals were hoodwinked, including the Parish Council and the deputy of the DC who was pleased to have a new place to ride her horse.

I forget now the exact help that the MoT 1922 map showing the road gave me, but it was all part of subsequent HMLR and Land Tribunal papers that eventually proved vehicular access for my property. The motor bike club, Trail Rider Fellowship were very helpful also.

The take away lesson is don't give up!
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