Detrunking

[rob6117]

I've not posted for a while but I'm back now with a question:

A lot of the posts here talk about the detrunking of trunk roads. What I'm not exactly sure about is what this actually entails? AFAIK it involves roads being passed on to the control of agencies other than the HA but does it involve any major changes in signage on the ground, chances of upgrading e.g. bypasses, D2 sections, or primary/secondary status for example?

As the (T) never appears on signs (apart from the A660T on the Leeds Loop!) what overall use does the trunk road definition have for the average driver out on the road? Is it just how he/she is able to follow signs directing towards primary routes on preferred road combinations? And why is detrunking seen to be so important for many roads? Is cost the issue here?

Ok a few questions then! But any info appreciated on this.

[Steven]

The driver should be completely unaware of whether a road that they're driving along is Trunk or Principal - there is no change in signage or standards.

Detrunking is the act of removing responsibility from the HA (or central government) to the relevant local authority. Equally roads can be trunked - for example the M62 Stretford-Eccles Bypass started life as a Principal Motorway before being Trunked at a later date.

Theoretically, there should be very little difference in the chances of any upgrades etc happening for the road - in Principal road upgrades the relevant local authority bids for grants from central government, who may even pay 100% of the cost.

Trunk and Primary are two completely different concepts.

Hope that helps!

[Bryn666]

Detrunking causes much grumbling on SABRE because it normally means that the local authorities will then slap 50mph limits, bus lanes, the usual on it.

Take the planned detrunking of the M32 - this is now off the cards once Bristol's true intentions for the road were known, apparently.

[Steven]

Detrunking causes much grumbling on SABRE because it normally means that the local authorities will then slap 50mph limits, bus lanes, the usual on it.

However, this isn't always the case - sometimes a backwater Trunk Road is the most important route within a local authority, and is therefore better looked after...

[Bryn666]

Yes, although that's a rarity these days - it may have held more clout about 25 years ago

[Slip de Garcon]

Detrunking the A35 seems to be a goal for West Dorset's hippy fraternity. As above, I'm not sure what this is meant to achieve.

[PeterA5145]

Detrunking causes much grumbling on SABRE because it normally means that the local authorities will then slap 50mph limits, bus lanes, the usual on it.

However, this isn't always the case - sometimes a backwater Trunk Road is the most important route within a local authority, and is therefore better looked after...

It pretty much always is the case. The Highways Agency are usually fairly competent at putting up correct signs, something that cannot be said of many local highway authorities.

Also, while their record isn't spotless, the HA generally have a reasonably sensible view towards speed limits, which again many local authorities don't. I can think of a fair number of 40s through scattered villages on HA roads which would be greatly extended 30s in Suffolk or Oxfordshire. Even where I don't agree with an HA limit reduction, you can generally see the point and don't think "this is really taking the ****!"

A prime example of this is the ludicrously extended 30 to protect a signalised crossing on the A34 at Stanley Green, which is controlled by Stockport MBC. There is a close equivalent on the HA-controlled A50 at Uttoxeter, which is a much shorter and more reasonable 40.

[Arcuarius]

Also, while their record isn't spotless, the HA generally have a reasonably sensible view towards speed limits, which again many local authorities don't. I can think of a fair number of 40s through scattered villages on HA roads which would be greatly extended 30s in Suffolk or Oxfordshire. Even where I don't agree with an HA limit reduction, you can generally see the point and don't think "this is really taking the ****!"

Mmm, a fair bit of the B1113 springs to mind.

[DavidBrown]

The NDLR was detrunked in 2002 - yes it's had 3 speed cameras put up along it and overtaking has been restricted on the S2+1 stretches, but Devon County Council seem to be doing a perfectly competent and good job on maintaining it (so long as you ignore the Barnstaple vergemasters! ). Plus they seen to be able to do a fair amount of work on other principal routes and even more minor roads.

[highwaymana31]

Detrunking causes much grumbling on SABRE because it normally means that the local authorities will then slap 50mph limits, bus lanes, the usual on it.

However, this isn't always the case - sometimes a backwater Trunk Road is the most important route within a local authority, and is therefore better looked after...

Agreements now exist where HA can ask LA's not to carry out amendments to the highways that form part of planned diversion routes for when a motorway/trunk road is closed (the detrunked route is often the diversion route). Also, HA can fund improvements on these same routes

[Nicholas]

It pretty much always is the case. The Highways Agency are usually fairly competent at putting up correct signs, something that cannot be said of many local highway authorities.

Except on the M56! Brown "Chester Zoo" patches on the advanced direction signs to J14. I don't know...

[haymansafc]

The A41 immediately south of Chester has become a ‘casualty’ thanks to the local authorities in recent years, thanks to it’s detrunnked status. I’ve discussed it here in the past but it’s now a combination of overkill 30mph (a second reduction from an original reduction to a reasonable 40mph) and 40mph limits which used to originally be 50mph and NSL respectively. Out into the open countryside south of Waverton, it now has a 50mph limit (previously a fine NSL) down to Milton Green. I must admit, Cheshire isn’t too bad (yet) when it comes to speed limits or over the top measures, but this is certainly one example.

However, I have to agree that the NDLR really hasn’t suffered from local authority treatment. It’s more or less the same road now than the one I remember using for the first time fourteen years ago. There hasn’t been any silly speed limit drops and personally, I’m in favour of the speed camera which has been placed looking eastbound on the long straight immediately east of Barnstaple. It really was a racetrack before that was put there. The others are rather suspiciously placed though. The biggest complaint with it now does have to be the lashings of red paint and vergemasters on the short ex-A39 section to the bypass (well, what’s left of them. There was only about five left when I was there last September! Plenty of debris in the middle ).

Overall though, I personally prefer a road under HA control than one under a local authority - certainly around here anyway.

[highwaymana31]

It pretty much always is the case. The Highways Agency are usually fairly competent at putting up correct signs, something that cannot be said of many local highway authorities.

Except on the M56! Brown "Chester Zoo" patches on the advanced direction signs to J14. I don't know...

Not wishing to take the thread further off-topic, but why not. Less concrete used, two less posts or safety fence to hit. I don't know the j/tion, but I daresay it isn't going to lead to information overload.

I realise that there are rules, but let's be honest, there probably aren't that many outside SABRE that would notice or worry about it, and I daresay there are others on SABRE that it wouldn't bother either

[SteveA30]

I was pleased that the A35 and A36 escaped detrunking, as it probably saved them from a plague of traffic lights and extra rbts. without any new road included. Wiltshire especially, have a record of adding lights on rural A roads.

Sometimes though, detrunking can be advantageous. The A6 received a flurry of bypasses just before detrunking. They were Rushden & Higham Ferrers, Desborough and Great Glen. It appeared to be a condition of detrunking. Does anyone know the details?

[Arcuarius]

Although some parts of the A120 are a bit rubbish, as it's only just been trunked. There are one or two mini-roundabouts, complete with yellow backing boards, down by Marks Tey. Those were council installations, if we had a choice (and enough money) we'd remove them.

As an aside, I designed the road markings for the resurfaced bit after that, also just past Coggeshall is mine too

[Johnathan404]

Not wishing to take the thread further off-topic, but why not. Less concrete used, two less posts or safety fence to hit. I don't know the j/tion, but I daresay it isn't going to lead to information overload.

I can't do the M56, but here's a similar example on the M53.

As for de-trunking, does anyone think there's a link between the Highways Agency wanting to remove all settlements from trunk routes and the number of trunk routes shrinking?

[Lil]

However, I have to agree that the NDLR really hasn’t suffered from local authority treatment. It’s more or less the same road now than the one I remember using for the first time fourteen years ago. There hasn’t been any silly speed limit drops and personally, I’m in favour of the speed camera which has been placed looking eastbound on the long straight immediately east of Barnstaple. It really was a racetrack before that was put there. The others are rather suspiciously placed though.

The one heading out of Tiverton up on to Rackford (or whatever it is) Moor is quite sensible as it's on a long downhill stretch which I have seen plenty of cars when I used to live around thereabouts (this was before it was detrunked) speeding down the hill at some pretty scary looking speeds and back then you could overtake going downhill as well as uphilll...

That one isn't so bad. The other one to the cross-roads at Pathfields Ind. Est. also is pretty well placed considering the speeds people came down the hill at towards the cross roads.

If anything the process of de-trunking the A361 between Sampford Peverell and Portmore did quite a bit of good in that the HA was forced to finish the central reserve (it only used to run for about a mile and a half before it petered out, apparently due to cost...) and a bit of resurfacing including the whole dual carriaged bit between the A396 and Sampford Peverell was done.

It seems after DCC's initial 'barmy years' over signing the route with zilions of repeaters and weird signage has been rationalised and its probably in as good nick as it ever was.

The problem is the complete dick wads who drive down it with their front end up your arse expecting you to do 70-80mph before executing their death-wish overtaking manouveres... The A361 isn't dangerous, it's the drivers on the A361. Besides, anything was better than the old cart track from Taunton via Wiveliscombe

But anyway...

[RichardA35]

Besides, anything was better than the old cart track from Taunton via Wiveliscombe

But anyway...

Only ever did that route once on my first day of work on NDLR at Barnstaple - thereafter always used the B road from Tiverton through Rackenford to South Molton from the M5 to get to office at Bideford which was far faster than the A roads thereabouts pre NDLR.

[rob6117]

All very good stuff - thanks all. Confirms part of what I knew and other things I didn't e.g. chances of upgrading regardless of trunk status or not.

If, as Steven says, primary and trunk are different concepts, am I right in thinking though that most (if not all?) trunk roads are primary routes or motorways? Is there any way of finding out which roads are trunk other than looking on 1:50,000 OS maps - not sure I've seen this on any road atlases recently although I vaguely remember old, much read atlases of my youth having things like A38(T) on roads I followed from the back seat of the car?

[Johnathan404]

Is there any way of finding out which roads are trunk other than looking on 1:50,000 OS maps - not sure I've seen this on any road atlases recently although I vaguely remember old, much read atlases of my youth having things like A38(T) on roads I followed from the back seat of the car?

For England, you can always ask the people that run them.