Botched Roadsigns

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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The A4215 initially is non-primary.
https://goo.gl/maps/WPLBChUnUELtoo927
Then a short way down the road it changes its mind and says "Nah, I want to be primary like the A470".
https://goo.gl/maps/31oFCfBQUprNtC6m7
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Rambo »

Been to Wigan today. I noticed quite a few signs such as the one captured here in the middle showing Bolton & Manchester. I'm not sure if they are correct. But they seem like a crossover between a stack type sign (with only 1 stack) and a route confirmation sign (with added route numbers). Wigan council seem to like them as i saw 3 or 4 like this in proximity of the town centre.
Edit' here is a link to another here https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5470411 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by solocle »

Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
It's a complete mess down there which boils back to the A57(M) was not originally a motorway and the restrictions were added later, with varying rates of success...
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 14:10
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
It's a complete mess down there which boils back to the A57(M) was not originally a motorway and the restrictions were added later, with varying rates of success...
Considering how many roads there are that should be motorways but aren't, this makes it almost funny. I also like how the "New 30mph Speed Limit" signs at the start of the slip road were there in 2009 and are still there now.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 16:06
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 14:10
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
It's a complete mess down there which boils back to the A57(M) was not originally a motorway and the restrictions were added later, with varying rates of success...
Considering how many roads there are that should be motorways but aren't, this makes it almost funny. I also like how the "New 30mph Speed Limit" signs at the start of the slip road were there in 2009 and are still there now.
While routes like the A303 should probably be motorways, not in their current form.
539E9CDB-9F2B-4C60-BD12-9816A81D9165.jpeg
Without remedial works that cost money, it's not a simple question of plopping up blue signs like seems to have been done in Manchester. You need to provide an alternative route for prohibited traffic - parts of the A303 are extremely difficult to avoid, for instance:
FA82E49E-C937-4199-8B8A-497A304CE853.jpeg
Yep, literally cycle directions to a national speed limit dual carriageway trunk road...

And still National Highways are pushing ahead with further dualling schemes on this very corridor (Sparkford to Ilchester) without adequate NMU provision...

I'd suggest making a law prohibiting any further online dualling schemes without a cycleway suitable for Chris Hoy speeds alongside, but that's me...
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by MotorwayGuy »

As said above, I totally agree. The section of the A2 Between Bexley and the M2 is a motorway in all but name, it even has hard shoulders. The reason for not making it so has always been stated that there is no alternative route for non-motorway traffic, so indeed there are no restrictions to prevent you from cycling along there. There even used to be a sign here warning cyclists of "narrow lanes ahead" but it was removed before streetview was a thing. I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian on this section but slow-moving farm vehicles do appear on the section near Gravesend periodicity, often resulting in sudden lane changes and braking and certainly isn't ideal.

The new A14 actually prohibits the same traffic a motorway does and is built to motorway standards, which begs the question why isn't it a motorway?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
Probably if they'd put the chopsticks sign just before that turn it wouldn't matter at all, as it stands you're going to be under motorway restrictions accidentally for how far? A few metres tops. It's a mess, but it's not going to cause chaos, only in a technical sense.
MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 21:21 As said above, I totally agree. The section of the A2 Between Bexley and the M2 is a motorway in all but name, it even has hard shoulders. The reason for not making it so has always been stated that there is no alternative route for non-motorway traffic, so indeed there are no restrictions to prevent you from cycling along there. There even used to be a sign here warning cyclists of "narrow lanes ahead" but it was removed before streetview was a thing. I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian on this section but slow-moving farm vehicles do appear on the section near Gravesend periodicity, often resulting in sudden lane changes and braking and certainly isn't ideal.

The new A14 actually prohibits the same traffic a motorway does and is built to motorway standards, which begs the question why isn't it a motorway?
Probably because there would be political pressure on it if it was, it's not the only stretch of A-road with special restrictions after all.

Such roads should definitely come with a 2-way cycle road alongside them though because in this case it's much safer to completely segregate cyclists from the much quicker (and much more) road traffic than have them alongside HGVs and stuff doing 60-70 mph all the way.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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ForestChav wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 21:42
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 Google Street View in Manchester
This is fine, it's an all purpose road. Then you turn left at the junction... and pass and "end of motorway restrictions" sign!

But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:

I was having a poke around this one after reading pathetic motorways.
Probably if they'd put the chopsticks sign just before that turn it wouldn't matter at all, as it stands you're going to be under motorway restrictions accidentally for how far? A few metres tops. It's a mess, but it's not going to cause chaos, only in a technical sense.
MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 21:21 As said above, I totally agree. The section of the A2 Between Bexley and the M2 is a motorway in all but name, it even has hard shoulders. The reason for not making it so has always been stated that there is no alternative route for non-motorway traffic, so indeed there are no restrictions to prevent you from cycling along there. There even used to be a sign here warning cyclists of "narrow lanes ahead" but it was removed before streetview was a thing. I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian on this section but slow-moving farm vehicles do appear on the section near Gravesend periodicity, often resulting in sudden lane changes and braking and certainly isn't ideal.

The new A14 actually prohibits the same traffic a motorway does and is built to motorway standards, which begs the question why isn't it a motorway?
Probably because there would be political pressure on it if it was, it's not the only stretch of A-road with special restrictions after all.

Such roads should definitely come with a 2-way cycle road alongside them though because in this case it's much safer to completely segregate cyclists from the much quicker (and much more) road traffic than have them alongside HGVs and stuff doing 60-70 mph all the way.
I mean, the key thing is to put the "end sign" just before the turning and match it with no entry / no pedestrians signs on the other side.

But as for hard shoulders, how about cycling on the former M27 spur [A36(M)]:

I have to say that it worked quite effectively as a bike lane while not dealing with junctions. Hardly ideal, but it beats your bog standard NSL D2.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 22:22 I have to say that it worked quite effectively as a bike lane while not dealing with junctions. Hardly ideal, but it beats your bog standard NSL D2.
I think in other countries it would be normal to provide a single track road which acts as a local farm traffic/NMU access road. The alternative where roads just end up with complex legal status to avoid them having blue signs does absolutely nothing for the users (motorised or not) the "alternative route rule" is presumably intended to protect. Has the feeling of 'parliamentary trains' where railway lines avoid formal closure by providing a useless service - laws presumably at one point designed to protect passengers just end up creating a lose-lose situation for everyone.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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jnty wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:22
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 22:22 I have to say that it worked quite effectively as a bike lane while not dealing with junctions. Hardly ideal, but it beats your bog standard NSL D2.
I think in other countries it would be normal to provide a single track road which acts as a local farm traffic/NMU access road. The alternative where roads just end up with complex legal status to avoid them having blue signs does absolutely nothing for the users (motorised or not) the "alternative route rule" is presumably intended to protect. Has the feeling of 'parliamentary trains' where railway lines avoid formal closure by providing a useless service - laws presumably at one point designed to protect passengers just end up creating a lose-lose situation for everyone.
Personally I quite like where it's an S2, as it makes for a more freeflowing journey on a bike. Although it does significantly increase the speeds of the motorists passing you, too:
capture4.jpg
But when we move away from motorways such layouts are generally very patchy indeed. The A30 west of Honiton has to be one of the most contiguous old roads I've encountered, and yet there were times I was on the main dual carriageway to join them up. And there was a detour along the A39/A395 to avoid the 15 mile section across Bodmin Moor.
capture5.jpg
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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solocle wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:55
jnty wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:22
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 22:22 I have to say that it worked quite effectively as a bike lane while not dealing with junctions. Hardly ideal, but it beats your bog standard NSL D2.
I think in other countries it would be normal to provide a single track road which acts as a local farm traffic/NMU access road. The alternative where roads just end up with complex legal status to avoid them having blue signs does absolutely nothing for the users (motorised or not) the "alternative route rule" is presumably intended to protect. Has the feeling of 'parliamentary trains' where railway lines avoid formal closure by providing a useless service - laws presumably at one point designed to protect passengers just end up creating a lose-lose situation for everyone.
Personally I quite like where it's an S2, as it makes for a more freeflowing journey on a bike. Although it does significantly increase the speeds of the motorists passing you, too:
capture4.jpg
But when we move away from motorways such layouts are generally very patchy indeed. The A30 west of Honiton has to be one of the most contiguous old roads I've encountered, and yet there were times I was on the main dual carriageway to join them up. And there was a detour along the A39/A395 to avoid the 15 mile section across Bodmin Moor.
capture5.jpg
Yeah, I'm thinking of tracks which provide no reasonable through route and are literally only for field access and the like. If there's going to be any level of "general traffic" you'd want a slow shared S2 or separate provision.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:
That I think is an issue with the way Motorways are usually signed. The entry slips have chopsticks, which includes "no pedestrians", so that's fine. The exit slips usually have "no entry" (or in this case "turn left") - but these don't apply to pedestrians! So in most cases there's no sign that prohibits pedestrians from entering the motorway via the exit slip, or even informing them that it is a motorway.

For a random example - You shouldn't walk up here. But where is the sign to say you can't?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by solocle »

SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 15:29
solocle wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:17 But it gets worse. It looks like a pavement on the right, albeit a narrow one. No "no pedestrians", just what looks like a footway straight onto the A57(M) :shock:
That I think is an issue with the way Motorways are usually signed. The entry slips have chopsticks, which includes "no pedestrians", so that's fine. The exit slips usually have "no entry" (or in this case "turn left") - but these don't apply to pedestrians! So in most cases there's no sign that prohibits pedestrians from entering the motorway via the exit slip, or even informing them that it is a motorway.

For a random example - You shouldn't walk up here. But where is the sign to say you can't?
Actually to be really pedantic there's no sign indicating the start of motorway restrictions at the corresponding entry slip... Yes, the direction sign has chopsticks, but it was only a few weeks ago that I, completely legitimately, cycled past just such a sign:

You can see that I did weigh it up before doing that, it's cruddy signage.

Also when in the area I could have cycled straight onto the A74(M) from Gretna Services for the same reason, but worse I had to follow Welcome Break direction signs to the A74(M) South to return to the B7076 North! Then again, we all know what motorway services are like...
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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Northern Ireland "Now how shall we sign the start of a motorway":

This...
Or this...
Maybe this...
And finally perhaps this?

I've seen some very strange things over here this last couple of weeks, including more warning triangles and supplementary plates so old that the red has faded to pink or nothing than I've ever seen anywhere else in such numbers.

Having said that, apart from one peak period in Belfast :shock:, it's been a pleasure driving around here, the roads seem so quiet.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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This is stretching Diagram 2403.1 to the limit. It does have a certain something about it though.
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