Botched Roadsigns
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- Nathan_A_RF
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
A bit different to usual
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
"On M6" ain't a prescribed variation for this sign either:Nathan_A_RF wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 23:18 A bit different to usual
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53489 ... 384!8i8192
And there's more:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.54191 ... 384!8i8192
Errm:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.52510 ... 384!8i8192
So what Diagram number is this one supposed to be?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.54198 ... 384!8i8192
No, just no:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.54220 ... 384!8i8192
Take the designer out and shoot the clueless idiot:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.54471 ... 384!8i8192
Thank goodness NH only employ competent contractors, eh?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
Ugh. The M1 Smart Motorway works had this nonsense too. I suppose I'm glad they gave up on the speech bubble shaped signs for roadworks, but this stuff is still just unnecessary clutter.Nathan_A_RF wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 23:18A bit different to usual
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
Imagine what the incompetent ones must be like
Chris
Roads.org.uk
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- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
I don't need to imagine. Shudders.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 09:01Ugh. The M1 Smart Motorway works had this nonsense too. I suppose I'm glad they gave up on the speech bubble shaped signs for roadworks, but this stuff is still just unnecessary clutter.Nathan_A_RF wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 23:18A bit different to usual
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
Imagine what the incompetent ones must be like
"Unnecessary clutter" in NH-speak is "Keeping our customers informed". Pass me a bucket, quick
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
They have developed a fetish for reinvention of the wheel on NW motorway projects. The narrow lanes signs are also in use on the M66 at the moment.Conekicker wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:53I don't need to imagine. Shudders.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 09:01Ugh. The M1 Smart Motorway works had this nonsense too. I suppose I'm glad they gave up on the speech bubble shaped signs for roadworks, but this stuff is still just unnecessary clutter.Nathan_A_RF wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 23:18A bit different to usual
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53413 ... 384!8i8192
Imagine what the incompetent ones must be like
"Unnecessary clutter" in NH-speak is "Keeping our customers informed". Pass me a bucket, quick
The best one is "you won't see us, we're only working overnight" - full night time closures and no work during the day, it paints a poor picture because the work area is behind continuous steel barrier anyway so fear of incursions can't be the main reason for it.
Bryn
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
Not working during the day might be access/egress concerns? But if you avoid the peaks, it shouldn't be much of a problem.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:46They have developed a fetish for reinvention of the wheel on NW motorway projects. The narrow lanes signs are also in use on the M66 at the moment.Conekicker wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:53I don't need to imagine. Shudders.
"Unnecessary clutter" in NH-speak is "Keeping our customers informed". Pass me a bucket, quick
The best one is "you won't see us, we're only working overnight" - full night time closures and no work during the day, it paints a poor picture because the work area is behind continuous steel barrier anyway so fear of incursions can't be the main reason for it.
The other reason might simply be lack of bodies for two shifts. Come back Lane Rental, all is forgiven? Nah, maybe not
The barrier will be there to prevent incursions into excavations, whether the workforce is present or not. The cost of hiring the barrier also bumps up the cost of the job but that's a secondary issue. Honest guv.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
- MotorwayGuy
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
Another peeve is what seems to be a recent thing of closing major routes and motorways overnight or even over entire weekends, in the past this seemed to happen a lot less, with contraflow setups or lane closures used instead.
- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
It honestly beats me how the contractors get away with it. Closing a road, (particularly a motorway), should be the LAST option for temporary traffic management and only used after ALL others have been clearly proven to be impractical. If I was a local authority bod and Johnny Contractor came to me asking to run potentially thousands of extra vehicles over my network as they wanted to close a motorway, he'd have a VERY hard time getting me to say "Yes". Playing the H&S "But it's safer" card would cut no ice at all. It was a hard enough job getting them to agree to emergency diversion route signing for routes that existed since the year dot, never mind planned works.MotorwayGuy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 22:13 Another peeve is what seems to be a recent thing of closing major routes and motorways overnight or even over entire weekends, in the past this seemed to happen a lot less, with contraflow setups or lane closures used instead.
In the decades I was in the game, I can only recall shutting a trunk route twice, both occasions full weekends for bridge works. Boy did I ever have to sweet-talk the local authority on both occasions. Said sweet-talking involving a joint inspection of the proposed diversion route and patching dodgy looking bits of carriageway, removing/reinstating some traffic islands thereon as needed, plus signal timing adjustments and providing a free recovery service on the diversion route, all at HE expense "just in case". Oh and one emergency closure to remove an accommodation bridge that had been whacked, needs must.
The only work I'd consider justifies a closure of the main line would be for bridge/gantry installation/demolition. Works on entry and exit slips are also usually justifiable, due to lack of lateral safety zone if the work involves the traffic lanes, but the diversion for them is usually to the next junction and back - simple, uncontroversial stuff. Everything else - lane closures or overnight/weekend contraflows - but they take a modicum of thought and effort, so...
Edit: Other work that might justify a full closure in one direction could be installation/removal of a temporary barrier system, depending on how wide the carriageway is. Even then, if there was a long length of barrier that took several nights to install/remove, an overnight contraflow should be considered before a road closure.
Last edited by Conekicker on Sat Jul 16, 2022 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
Latest drivel on the M56 smart motorway work, new A frame signs proudly proclaiming "New gantry for your safety".
This is all PR gimmicks to soften the anger about mismanagement of the SM rollout isn't it?
This is all PR gimmicks to soften the anger about mismanagement of the SM rollout isn't it?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
"Narrow lanes for your safety" always amuses me. How can narrow lanes, putting vehicles closer together and thus more at risk of a collision be "for safety"?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
Agree, agree, agree. It's unbelievable how often trunk roads get closed in full now. Ten years ago it was unthinkable.Conekicker wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 23:14It honestly beats me how the contractors get away with it. Closing a road, (particularly a motorway), should be the LAST option for temporary traffic management and only used after ALL others have been clearly proven to be impractical. If I was a local authority bod and Johnny Contractor came to me asking to run potentially thousands of extra vehicles over my network as they wanted to close a motorway, he'd have a VERY hard time getting me to say "Yes". Playing the H&S "But it's safer" card would cut no ice at all. It was a hard enough job getting them to agree to emergency diversion route signing for routes that existed since the year dot, never mind planned works.MotorwayGuy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 22:13 Another peeve is what seems to be a recent thing of closing major routes and motorways overnight or even over entire weekends, in the past this seemed to happen a lot less, with contraflow setups or lane closures used instead.
I've posted before about this so won't go into detail for fear of sounding like a broken record, but the full weekend closures of the M4 around J5, on what felt like almost every weekend over a period of years, for the Smart Motorway upgrade, are the most egregious example of this and how it was ever allowed to happen is beyond me. But nobody appears to have kicked up a fuss, so I have no doubt the precedent has now been set.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
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- MotorwayGuy
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
The worst example I have experienced is the current Bean Junction improvements on the A2. The amount of time and disruption that has caused just to add a second overbridge and slip road is insane compared to the previous widening work. The junction was closed overnight every weekend for months, the A2 mainline through the junction was closed for an entire weekend last summer, causing major disruption and people to throw chunks of concrete at workers on the site.
- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
Saw one yesterday but didn't have a camera with me. A portable traffic signal site. Now you'd expect to see "WHEN RED LIGHT SHOWS WAIT HERE" signs just in front of each signal head, yes?
At STOP/GO sites the sign says, "WHEN STOP SIGN SHOWS WAIT HERE".
Now given that PTS is a far more common form of temporary traffic control than STOP/GO, you wouldn't think anyone would have a problem with getting the correct sign, wouldn't you?
Nope.
The sign I saw said "WHEN RED SIGN SHOWS WAIT HERE", where someone had taken to trouble to patch over "STOP" with "RED".
Clueless numpties everywhere.
At STOP/GO sites the sign says, "WHEN STOP SIGN SHOWS WAIT HERE".
Now given that PTS is a far more common form of temporary traffic control than STOP/GO, you wouldn't think anyone would have a problem with getting the correct sign, wouldn't you?
Nope.
The sign I saw said "WHEN RED SIGN SHOWS WAIT HERE", where someone had taken to trouble to patch over "STOP" with "RED".
Clueless numpties everywhere.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
Drove through a new speed reduction today along the B5153 at Crowton in Cheshire. I don't have any pics sadly. But the signage didn't look right to me.
The limit in Crowton village is 30mph going to 50mph either side. The 30mph appears to have been extended west by a mile or so.
This is where the limit used to change https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2657602 ... 384!8i8192 but now these normal sized terminal signs have been replaced with enormously large 30mph roundals and they are not indicating a change of speed as this is a mile or so further west. These new roundals are effectively repeaters at this location now so surely shouldn't be large in size? They are bloomin massive! They look like the largest size i guess possible when approaching from a fast NSL road. The new terminal sign further west (which i have no pic) is just one extra large 30mph roundal on the right hand side of the road! It seems the signage is oversized to me and look quite intrusive for a rural stretch of road entering a village. My question would be why upgrade these terminal signs for larger versions? and why now have two large terminal signs as repeaters in the middle of it all. I'm not aware this location is an accident black spot so seems odd to me. Then again, it's not the first time Cheshire West council have gotten terminal signs wrong, with a 60mph roundal just up the road near Delamere what should be a NSL side road.
It could be that the work hasn't been completed yet but i will endeavour to grab some pics next time.
The limit in Crowton village is 30mph going to 50mph either side. The 30mph appears to have been extended west by a mile or so.
This is where the limit used to change https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2657602 ... 384!8i8192 but now these normal sized terminal signs have been replaced with enormously large 30mph roundals and they are not indicating a change of speed as this is a mile or so further west. These new roundals are effectively repeaters at this location now so surely shouldn't be large in size? They are bloomin massive! They look like the largest size i guess possible when approaching from a fast NSL road. The new terminal sign further west (which i have no pic) is just one extra large 30mph roundal on the right hand side of the road! It seems the signage is oversized to me and look quite intrusive for a rural stretch of road entering a village. My question would be why upgrade these terminal signs for larger versions? and why now have two large terminal signs as repeaters in the middle of it all. I'm not aware this location is an accident black spot so seems odd to me. Then again, it's not the first time Cheshire West council have gotten terminal signs wrong, with a 60mph roundal just up the road near Delamere what should be a NSL side road.
It could be that the work hasn't been completed yet but i will endeavour to grab some pics next time.
- Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
Gone now as the scheme they were there for is complete but...
Temporary signals which, when they aren't working, the non-prescribed (and unauthorised = unlawful) sign tells you to STOP but then there's the old, permanent GIVE WAY still present behind it.
So what is are drivers to do, stop for the signals, then when they get a green go then immediately give way? Or if the signals are off, stop then give way?
Come on, it's not hard to get it right Leeds.
Temporary signals which, when they aren't working, the non-prescribed (and unauthorised = unlawful) sign tells you to STOP but then there's the old, permanent GIVE WAY still present behind it.
So what is are drivers to do, stop for the signals, then when they get a green go then immediately give way? Or if the signals are off, stop then give way?
Come on, it's not hard to get it right Leeds.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Botched Roadsigns
Maybe the GIVE WAY is present (albeit incorrectly) because there are uncontrolled junctions feeding onto the roadworks, ones which don't otherwise have enough traffic to demand their own phased signals.
Technically the green lamp means "proceed if safe", not proceed regardless.
Technically the green lamp means "proceed if safe", not proceed regardless.
- Bfivethousand
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
New sign in Albert Village
A new double mini roundabout is being built on my doorstep - how it's taking 14 weeks to install is a bit of a mystery but still...
Two issues with this sign:-
1 - Moira and Donisthorpe are straight in front of you, reached by going ahead towards Measham and certainly not by taking a right; and
2 - Albert Village is situated in a 7.5 tonne weight limit zone - there is no reason why any goods vehicle from any of the nearby industrial areas should find themselves anywhere near this junction - so why HGVs are actively being directed towards Woodville is anyone's guess.
And a third one too. Not quite a botch as such but yet another example of the horrible practice of placing ahead destinations alongside vertical route arms which seems to be becoming endemic around Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Staffordshire, here's another one at a new roundabout that really doesn't need an ADS . It looks awful and I'm pretty confident that neither TSRGD nor TSM Ch. 7 at any point suggests designing signs in this way. They make me wince every time I see them.
A new double mini roundabout is being built on my doorstep - how it's taking 14 weeks to install is a bit of a mystery but still...
Two issues with this sign:-
1 - Moira and Donisthorpe are straight in front of you, reached by going ahead towards Measham and certainly not by taking a right; and
2 - Albert Village is situated in a 7.5 tonne weight limit zone - there is no reason why any goods vehicle from any of the nearby industrial areas should find themselves anywhere near this junction - so why HGVs are actively being directed towards Woodville is anyone's guess.
And a third one too. Not quite a botch as such but yet another example of the horrible practice of placing ahead destinations alongside vertical route arms which seems to be becoming endemic around Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Staffordshire, here's another one at a new roundabout that really doesn't need an ADS . It looks awful and I'm pretty confident that neither TSRGD nor TSM Ch. 7 at any point suggests designing signs in this way. They make me wince every time I see them.
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- MotorwayGuy
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
Because it's in Leeds?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns
It's not the only one...
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8042689 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.801845, ... 384!8i8192
Strangely on the main line they're correct
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7994375 ... 312!8i6656
(is that the world's smallest motorway entrance sign? It's dinky!)
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8042689 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.801845, ... 384!8i8192
Strangely on the main line they're correct
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7994375 ... 312!8i6656
(is that the world's smallest motorway entrance sign? It's dinky!)