Botched Roadsigns

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tom66
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by tom66 »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:31 Schrodinger's weight limit.
No entry -- and DEFINITELY no entry if you're more than 16.5 tonnes.

All it needs is an "except for access" to really stir the pot.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Bfivethousand »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:31 Schrodinger's weight limit.
I note that your image is from 2012... this one's from last month and whilst the junction is a little distant, lo and behold, the weight limit sign looks as though it's been replaced at some point! It looks larger and more vivid than previously at the very least.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

tom66 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:39
MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:31 Schrodinger's weight limit.
No entry -- and DEFINITELY no entry if you're more than 16.5 tonnes.

All it needs is an "except for access" to really stir the pot.
No entry, but if you really have to, you can enter, unless you're more than 16.5 tonnes.
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Nathan_A_RF
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

I reported the white sign to HE and they basically said 'we can't be bothered to replace it'
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by the cheesecake man »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 05:15
tom66 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:39
MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 17:31 Schrodinger's weight limit.
No entry -- and DEFINITELY no entry if you're more than 16.5 tonnes.

All it needs is an "except for access" to really stir the pot.
No entry, but if you really have to, you can enter, unless you're more than 16.5 tonnes.
What about "no entry, and if you're over 16.5 tonnes don't bother going round to the other end because you can't go that way either"? That might be useful.
Except there's no such restriction at that end. :confused:
tom66
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by tom66 »

There's a further restriction sign a bit up the road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5741569 ... 384!8i8192
(looking a little tatty)

as well as a larger sign indicating 16.5 tonne trucks are not permitted down a specific street.

My guess is that the 16.5 tonne restriction* was implemented to prevent rat running, but at some point a few streets were made one-way, and no one thought that there might be a conflict arising here. The fact that it's been tidied up and replaced though, that's quite amusing. Sometimes you wonder.

*I'm curious about exactly how 16.5 tonnes may have been reached. It's my understanding that would basically cap it at a bit under the typical 18 tonne two-axle limit, and of course anything over that up to 44 tonnes. But it does seem fairly arbitrary compared to 7.5 tonnes (standard licence limit) or 18 tonnes (the point at which something might be called a "proper lorry", for lack of a better term.)

There's some further amusement down the road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.573685, ... 384!8i8192

Presumably this is a calendar of events. Something happens from midnight to 7am on Saturdays, but permit holders aren't invited because they really damp the party down. It's been like this for at least 10 years...

This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192

No motor vehicles 8.30-9.30am 3.30-4.30pm (M-F) then 20ft down the road no trucks midnight-7am. So if you do drive a 16.5 tonne truck, watch out: you're not allowed there midnight-7am 8.30am-9.30am 3.30pm-4.30pm and then 9pm-midnight on a weekday. Unless you've got a permit SS12, then you can do the school run in your truck. God only knows how London drivers cope.

I've always hated signs like this. How on earth are you supposed to parse and understand that when you're moving a vehicle at 20 odd mph? Let alone, by the time you have read it, you're breaking the law by passing that with nowhere to go.
SteelCamel
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by SteelCamel »

tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by MotorwayGuy »

SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 20:59
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
The trouble with these restrictions is they are poorly signed and they are appearing all over London. That one appears to have an ANPR camera enforcing it as well, a nice little cash cow for people who are unfamiliar with the area.
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jervi
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jervi »

SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 20:59
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
Restrictions like these have been popping up all over the country during and since the rona. Usually called something under the guise of "School Streets". The idea is that it will encourage the school run to be carried out by alternative means such as walking, cycling or scooting which tackles congestion during school dropoff/pickup times. It also allows the spaces out side of schools to be safer and hopefully less children being ran over. In addition they bring in idiot tax money when enforced.

There has been a roll out of school streets in Brighton, and I believe the council is aiming at doing 4-6 per year until all schools that need it are done.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8263103 ... 384!8i8192
This one was rolled out during the Lockdown, and shortly after had the end of the road closed to motor traffic 24/7. Bit strange since the motor vehicle restriction sign is still present.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by tom66 »

For me the issue is that there's just no way to know about these random little exceptions in advance - it's individual councils carving out their own rules and then enforcing them with an iron fist.

Unlike some others I don't object to the idea of ULEZ or Congestion Charge (though I don't live in London and avoid driving there as much as I can) because they're clearly signed and you *know* what the rules are.

But if you're turning left at the lights before that junction with the school-run banned you wouldn't know until it's too late. What are you going to do, slam on the brakes and then reverse the lorry back onto the road?

I'm all for school zones being as car-free and truck-free as possible, especially in a city like London with its otherwise excellent public transit; but it needs to be implemented competently.
jnty
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jnty »

jervi wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 15:23
SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 20:59
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
Restrictions like these have been popping up all over the country during and since the rona. Usually called something under the guise of "School Streets". The idea is that it will encourage the school run to be carried out by alternative means such as walking, cycling or scooting which tackles congestion during school dropoff/pickup times. It also allows the spaces out side of schools to be safer and hopefully less children being ran over. In addition they bring in idiot tax money when enforced.

There has been a roll out of school streets in Brighton, and I believe the council is aiming at doing 4-6 per year until all schools that need it are done.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8263103 ... 384!8i8192
This one was rolled out during the Lockdown, and shortly after had the end of the road closed to motor traffic 24/7. Bit strange since the motor vehicle restriction sign is still present.
The ones in Edinburgh use flashing lights, which seems a bit less confusing. They are also sometimes staffed by volunteers from the schools or enforced with barriers but obviously given there are permit exemptions in residential areas it can get tricky. Really, as with your example, the ideal solution is to just physically close the road outside schools permanently where practical.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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swissferry
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by swissferry »

Does the no pedestrians sign include the newly created path? If so and the other pedestrian access is closed how do you get back to your car in the car park?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Big L »

swissferry wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 20:01 Does the no pedestrians sign include the newly created path? If so and the other pedestrian access is closed how do you get back to your car in the car park?
I’m not local to this, so I’m basing this reply on what I see on the Google.

Sign says No pedestrian access to Argyll Street. This is the Argyll Street car park but there appears not to be any access (pedestrian or vehicle) to Argyll Street; there would appear to be a row of houses in the way. There could be a way through but I can’t see one.

It’s not a sign banning pedestrians (red circle with walking man); it’s advice to pedestrians not to waste an attempt at a short cut.
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tom66
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by tom66 »

It appears the problem is there's a building demolition in the way.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.949129, ... 384!8i8192
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solocle
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by solocle »

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solocle
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by solocle »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 17:51
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 16:45 Is this a bodge? The A14 is not a motorway, so the sign should not be blue, as it is depicting restrictions and not information.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.23111 ... 8192?hl=en

It should be grey, like this one:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.23538 ... 8192?hl=en

Or is it blue because it's adjacent to the M11 onslip, even if it refers to the A14 and there's no way to get onto the A14 once you've joined that slip?
It's common for weight and width restrictions to be signed in advance with blue signs, which is probably why that one is. The positioning is questionable, should be bigger and set back before the slip road really.
There is an advance sign here, too - After J32
However, if I were cycling along the A14, it would probably be a quiet time. So, if I happened across a tractor, I may well be able to overtake it. If it were unfortunately timed, I'd probably miss that sign due to there being a tractor between me and it!

In such a case, it would be easy to mix up the "prohibited traffic" directions with "non-motorway traffic", and thus that second A14 restrictions sign would be the wrong side of the tiger's tail - again potential for interceding vehicles. Plus the beam throw of my dynamo light isn't really designed to pick up signs at such a distance away. And, going through it in street view, it doesn't look like there's any actual start of restrictions sign. :lol:

Almost as if it would be simpler and less prone to error if it was the A14(M)...
Jonathan24
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Jonathan24 »

Big L wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 20:12
swissferry wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 20:01 Does the no pedestrians sign include the newly created path? If so and the other pedestrian access is closed how do you get back to your car in the car park?
I’m not local to this, so I’m basing this reply on what I see on the Google.

Sign says No pedestrian access to Argyll Street. This is the Argyll Street car park but there appears not to be any access (pedestrian or vehicle) to Argyll Street; there would appear to be a row of houses in the way. There could be a way through but I can’t see one.

It’s not a sign banning pedestrians (red circle with walking man); it’s advice to pedestrians not to waste an attempt at a short cut.
Except there's one of those too (although badly faded):

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9479522 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by multiraider2 »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 22:04
SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 20:59
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
The trouble with these restrictions is they are poorly signed and they are appearing all over London. That one appears to have an ANPR camera enforcing it as well, a nice little cash cow for people who are unfamiliar with the area.
Yep. Croydon Council wants to get in on this particular cash cow. Here's one locally, with camera enforcement. The roads on either side of this off Portland Road are one-way from the other end, forcing you to go quite a bit out of the way to get to Albert Road. They had already blocked the roads leading there further towards South Norwood.
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pjr10th
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by pjr10th »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 22:04
SteelCamel wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 20:59
tom66 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 19:00 This goes even further:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5704653 ... 384!8i8192
That seems bizarre. A "pedestrian and cycle zone" that allows most motor vehicles 22 hours a day!

I also notice that it fails to mention the weak bridge ahead. So even if your truck is under 16.5T, it's daytime and not school time, or you have the relevant permit, you still have to turn round when you reach the railway as there's a 7.5T limit. And you do have to turn round, as the road that would take you to the non-weak bridge is one way in the other direction.
The trouble with these restrictions is they are poorly signed and they are appearing all over London. That one appears to have an ANPR camera enforcing it as well, a nice little cash cow for people who are unfamiliar with the area.
Thankfully there is a direction sign clearly indicating the restriction for right turners. No help for left turners but they might be expected to be able to read/handle the situation a bit more easily from their side of the road? Still, there's got to be a better way of doing this.

In Jersey, we don't have roads closed by schools, but most schools have a part-time 20 limit. This is enforced by flashing amber wig wags on each approach to the school and you can be fined for contravening them (noticed in England they tend to be advisory limits only). Recently the Government have got into a habit of making them permanent by covering up the text 'when lights flash' on the part-time signs. Wonder if anyone's been caught out.
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