Streetview South Africa

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booshank
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by booshank »

For the lovers of interesting street lightings, there are these lamps on the N2 in the small town of Riviersonderend which also seem to carry phone lines. This is also a very typical main road through a small, rural town which tends to be long and straight with a centre divider.

Riviersonderend - Google Maps
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J N Winkler
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by J N Winkler »

crazyknightsfan wrote:Here is a deteriorating trailblazer in Belfast.

I know very little about South Africa - is this an old style that is being phased out?
Yes. The "33" is in FHWA Series D.

In general there are basically three generations of traffic signing in South Africa, which can be differentiated by typeface choice and (to an extent) design of sign panels. "Johannesburg system," used since the 1960's (at least) and very similar in appearance to pre-Worboys signs in Britain with the exception of Afrikaans instead of English legend, is the oldest. I think the typeface used is similar, if not identical, to the MOT typeface. At some point in the 1960's or early 1970's, the South Africans modernized their traffic signing and started combining the FHWA alphabet series and filled-barb arrows with some British design touches such as stub arms with 90° chamfer. On signs from this generation you can normally expect to see destination legend in mixed-case FHWA Series E Modified, route marker digits in FHWA Series D, etc. Signs from this period look very Australian. Then, around 1994, the South Africans commissioned a new traffic signing manual, borrowing heavily from the Germans and using DIN typefaces. This system is still in use and has been rolled out to the other SADC countries, though I am not sure how widely it has been applied in the SADC member states where the per capita GDP is far less than South Africa's.
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Vierwielen
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by Vierwielen »

J N Winkler wrote: In general there are basically three generations of traffic signing in South Africa, which can be differentiated by typeface choice and (to an extent) design of sign panels. "Johannesburg system," used since the 1960's (at least) and very similar in appearance to pre-Worboys signs in Britain with the exception of Afrikaans instead of English legend, is the oldest.
Until the early 1970's signs were similarish to British pre-Warboys signs, but they never had "cats-eys" studs in them (at least I can't remember ever seeing them). Where text was used, English and Afrikaans appeared one above the each other, with the langauge taking priority alternating from sign to sign. Also, each province had its own variations, for example the Orange Free State never included distances on their signs.
J N Winkler wrote: At some point in the 1960's or early 1970's, the South Africans modernized their traffic signing and started combining the FHWA alphabet series and filled-barb arrows with some British design touches such as stub arms with 90° chamfer. On signs from this generation you can normally expect to see destination legend in mixed-case FHWA Series E Modified, route marker digits in FHWA Series D, etc. Signs from this period look very Australian.
The South Africans combined the upgrading of their signs with metrication. Ther was no need to distinguish 30 mph from 50 km/h as the Irish have had to do - the two signs were so different that nobody could be confused. Also, there were very few visiting drivers. They however had their own colour scheme (I am not talking politics here :)) - for example the maximum speed limit sign had a blue field, white digits and a red circle. The minimum speed limit was the same, apart from the red circle. Fine when the signs were new. When they became old and weather-beaten, the situation often arose that one could not be distinguished from the other. Warning signs were European in design (apart from the colour scheme), not Australian in design.
J N Winkler wrote: Then, around 1994, the South Africans commissioned a new traffic signing manual, borrowing heavily from the Germans and using DIN typefaces. This system is still in use and has been rolled out to the other SADC countries, though I am not sure how widely it has been applied in the SADC member states where the per capita GDP is far less than South Africa's.
I noticed that on my last visit there (2001).
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by crazyknightsfan »

J N Winkler wrote:Yes. The "33" is in FHWA Series D.

In general there are basically three generations of traffic signing in South Africa, which can be differentiated by typeface choice and (to an extent) design of sign panels. "Johannesburg system," used since the 1960's (at least) and very similar in appearance to pre-Worboys signs in Britain with the exception of Afrikaans instead of English legend, is the oldest. I think the typeface used is similar, if not identical, to the MOT typeface. At some point in the 1960's or early 1970's, the South Africans modernized their traffic signing and started combining the FHWA alphabet series and filled-barb arrows with some British design touches such as stub arms with 90° chamfer. On signs from this generation you can normally expect to see destination legend in mixed-case FHWA Series E Modified, route marker digits in FHWA Series D, etc. Signs from this period look very Australian. Then, around 1994, the South Africans commissioned a new traffic signing manual, borrowing heavily from the Germans and using DIN typefaces. This system is still in use and has been rolled out to the other SADC countries, though I am not sure how widely it has been applied in the SADC member states where the per capita GDP is far less than South Africa's.
So is this sign from that middle period?

What about this one?
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J N Winkler
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by J N Winkler »

crazyknightsfan wrote:So is this sign from that middle period?

What about this one?
Both are. The sign in the first picture uses Series E Modified, while the one in the second uses Series C. The choice of alphabet series seems to follow the same pattern as some Western states in the USA, where important roads (generally state highways) get Series E Modified while lesser roads get Series D or C.

In the USA the FHWA alphabet series were rejigged several years ago so that all of them (B, C, D, E, E Modified, and F) have both uppercase and lowercase letters. Before this happened, however, all of the alphabets were uppercase only and there was a separate alphabet, called Lowercase, which had lowercase letters to match Series E Modified. (In practice usage was quite loose and the phrase "Series E Modified" was used to refer to the combination of Series E Modified and Lowercase.) The Australians, New Zealanders, and South Africans all copied the FHWA alphabet series long before these recent changes, so the older signs in South Africa reflect the availability of complementary lowercase letters only for Series E Modified.

The FHWA alphabet series are now diagrammed in the "Standard Alphabets" chapter of Standard Highway Signs (the American equivalent to the working drawings on the DFT website).
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c2R
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by c2R »

cb a1 wrote:Brings back memories of visiting there in 2003.

Not scenic, but scenes like
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... 91,,0,8.92
remind me of the 'slog' getting from Cape Town back to Jo'burg towards the end of the holiday.

Come over the crest of a hill and it was just a dead straight stretch of road to the next crest miles in the distance surrounded by brown scrub.

Beats a slow moving M1 from M6 down to the M10 turn at the end of a long Bank holiday on the Sunday afternoon!
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Viator
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by Viator »

J N,

I love it when you use language like "filled-barb arrows" and "stub arms with 90° chamfer" :)

This is exactly the kind of traffic-sign design detail I've been obsessed with since well before and during the time when I wasted so much time in the library at university reading specialist professional traffic-management journals instead of getting on with the (totally unrelated) study I was supposed to be getting on with there.

I wonder how people (and I know we have several amongst the membership of Sabre) end up working in this area. It's not something that "careers officers" ever suggested as a possibility in my schooldays even though I'd been very interested in the subject since at least the age of seven.
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by OLD GIT »

signol wrote:
Viator wrote:I wonder if you could enlighten us about the "pap and steak" and "sphatlo"
"pap" is a kind of porridge made from corn (mielie) meal, a roughly ground flour. Steak would be the stewed beef served with it.

signol
And a few KM to the north in Zimbabwe, pap becomes "SUDZA" ( SP?) and the meat would be beef called "ration meat" . Sudza was worked into a ball by hand and flavoured with the meat gravy.
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by michaelsa »

Re: History of the two N4's in Pretoria

Until 1990 when a new national route numbering was introduced in South Africa, the N4 used to terminate at the Proefplaas interchange in Pretoria (with the N1). The route to Rustenburg through Attridgeville, Hartbeespoort and then beyond to Zeerust and Upington was named R27. The R27 changed alignment at the junction with the R511, turning north into Haartbeespoort. Significantly, at Haartbeespoort, the R27 passed through the Magaliesburg range (though the tunnel over the dam wall). Even at this stage there were three roads from Pretoria to Haartbeespoort/Brits – south of the Magaliesburg the main road R27 from Church Street and the R514, and north there was the R513 and R566.

The first attempt to upgrade the R27 between Pretoria and Rustenburg into one with grade separated junctions was the construction of a new alignment of 25km west of Haartbeespoort. Although only 3 junctions were built - and one carriageway - the bridges of the junctions show that a freeway was planned! The new alignment terminated very strangely at the eastern end with the R512 – in the form of two separate half diamond interchanges. The R27 went to the southern most of these interchanges, and then was rerouted back onto the old R27 alignment. The problem was this: how would the freeway (or at least a grade separated single carriageway) be extended eastwards to Pretoria!

A first proposal was to build along the alignment of the spur from the R80 - in parts this spur of about 5km has four carriageways! Its alignment very much follows the R514, but the problem is that it too would have to pass through the Magaliesburg range at some point, and secondly, how would it get to the east of Pretoria. Since the R80 was destined to continue southwards, the spur was named R567.

A second proposal (which has been partly built) was an alignment that would have continued from where the R27 ended just before Haartbeestpoort at the diamond interchange, passed through the Magaliesburg, through the cutting which is clearly visible. This would have been parallel to Kommandonek. The first part which was built was (what is now part of the R512, but which route markers have clearly shown as N4), which is the western bridge over the Haartbeespoortdam. Looking at this segment of only 5km it is clear that at each end, it terminates off the proposed line of the intended route. There is a bridge (unused) at one end, where the alignment would have run. Following a different alignment to the present R512 it would have tied in (then as a freeway) to the terminus of the N4 freeway that was constructed from Vom Hagen Road to a junction just after the R511 near Pelindaba. The problem with this route was money - at the time it was designed and planned, it was a lack of money that saw it halted: other more urgent road projects had to be built. But there was a second problem - there was no East West bypass of Pretoria - which meant that traffic had to pass through Pretoria. This linking up of this freeway, to its other parts may still be completed – since the R512 is no longer capable of carrying the volume of traffic that it does.

When this freeway was built (Magalies Toll Route) and because the N4 was then extended westwards from the Proefplaas interchange and replaced the R27 - this misnomer now remains! Some newer signs in Pretoria show this freeway as M4 to Broederstroom rather than Rustenburg. But the official signs along the route remain N4. The old R27 from Pretoria (along Church Street) and to the junction with the R511 is known as the R104. The old Church Street route was never the N4. Perhaps SANRAL might in time rename this route M4 as signs need to be replaced.

As an aside the N4 has a second anomaly which is the west of Machadodorp, where there are two alignments for the N4!

The final solution of the N4 was to use the present alignment of the N1 through the Magaliesburg range, and then 2km north of Zambezi drive, build a freeway which would run to Rustenburg.

This was built as a Toll Road together with this part of the N1, some would say controversially so, since the N1 was already in existence over 30 years! The N4 is now a dual carriageway freeway (East/West), but after Rosslyn reverts to single carriageway. The N4 ties in with the second (half) diamond interchange on the R512, now a full diamond interchange. This is the northern of the two. It then follows the original R27 alignment outlined in the first proposal, although a new section was also built. The southern diamond interchange remains as a spur, although it is not officially the N4.

Travelling around Haartbeespoort one might remain very confused since many older signs either with R27 or N4 still remain. Indeed, the route for abnormal vehicles which avoided the tunnel and the dam wall (R511,R513) was in fact also named N4 at times!
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by michaelsa »

An important distinction must be made of the road signs in South Africa between 1970-1990. Each province (4 at the time) followed its own design of road signs! Whilst there were similarites, there are also notable differences. Route confirmation (distance) signs in the Transvaal, for example, used block capital letters for destinations. Many junction signs (non freeway) in Natal used to provide distances on them to the destinations. Many signs in the Cape Province were made on chromodek!
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by michaelsa »

Attached are two pictures from the N4 Magalies Toll Road terminus. One shows the freeway carriageways that were built for a further 1km beyond the terminus - a further bridge was built as well. The other reflects a bridge (single carriageway) that has never been used - it is found at the southern end of the R512 bridge across the Haartbeespoort Dam.
Attachments
This bridge has never been used, but exists on part of the initial N4 road never built!
This bridge has never been used, but exists on part of the initial N4 road never built!
Western End of Magalies Toll Road - freeway was built for further 1km beyond terminus.
Western End of Magalies Toll Road - freeway was built for further 1km beyond terminus.
The freeway that was supposed to continue but never happened!! Note reference to old route number R27.
The freeway that was supposed to continue but never happened!! Note reference to old route number R27.
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Vierwielen
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by Vierwielen »

Does anybody know when this road was built? I have a sneaky suspicion that it was built during the Apartheid era for purposes of moving the military quickly if needed. After the fall of Apartheid, its military need fell away and the economic need was never there. (Just my thoughts).
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by michaelsa »

[quote="Vierwielen"]Does anybody know when this road was built? I have a sneaky suspicion that it was built during the Apartheid era for purposes of moving the military quickly if needed. After the fall of Apartheid, its military need fell away and the economic need was never there. (Just my thoughts).[/quote]

The Magalies Toll Road was built in 1991, so probably negates your suspicion, yet it is curious why it was built since it represents the least significant section of the proposal! Two big toll roads had just been completed around that time as well which might be another factor why money run out! (The earlier section was built around 1985).
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by booshank »

The mobility scooter on the A14 makes me think of this: woman pushing shopping tolley on the hardshoulder of the N1 south of Bloemfontein
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by A303Paul »

This junction really ought to be twinned with Glasgow

http://goo.gl/maps/ZgHBH
booshank
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by booshank »

A303Paul wrote:This junction really ought to be twinned with Glasgow

http://goo.gl/maps/ZgHBH
Do you mean this one?

I think the Cape Town one was built on a more ambitious scale but I'm guessing the same era (construction was halted in the mid-70s). It's more apparent at the stumps at the other end for the unbuilt mainline, note the massive carriageway separation used as a carpark.

Personally I think the brutalist structures go very well with the dramatic natural setting, but others disagree! South African freeway designs seem to achieve a special degree of brutalism that you rarely see here - I think maybe it's the concrete parapets rather than the typical British steel railings.
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by Truvelo »

I believe there are plans to complete it unlike Glasgow.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
A303Paul
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by A303Paul »

Truvelo wrote:I believe there are plans to complete it unlike Glasgow.
Latest idea seems to be to demolish it

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/soundin ... nfinished-

The daft thing is that both ends are done, it is basically only the flyover across the junction that is needed, but it seems that it is now frowned upon for splitting the waterfront from the CBD in the same way as Birminghams "concrete collar" was.
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by booshank »

A303Paul wrote:
Truvelo wrote:I believe there are plans to complete it unlike Glasgow.
Latest idea seems to be to demolish it

http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/soundin ... nfinished-

The daft thing is that both ends are done, it is basically only the flyover across the junction that is needed, but it seems that it is now frowned upon for splitting the waterfront from the CBD in the same way as Birminghams "concrete collar" was.
I think the trouble is people tend to just parrot a received wisdom that elevated roads near a port are bad rather than actually thinking logically. The reality is that the port of Cape Town is a big, ugly industrial facility yet people talk as if they are being separated from some picturesque little fishing harbour. You wouldn't or couldn't just take a stroll around the piles of scrap metal, shipping containers etc whether the freeway was there or not.
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Re: Streetview South Africa

Post by booshank »

Streetview also answers a question I was thinking of: how would they upgrade the S4 rural main roads that are quite common in South Africa? It seems the solution is simple, turn the original road into a three lane carriageway and build a new two lane carriageway alongside.

Before

After
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