Botched Traffic Signals

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jervi
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jervi »

AlexBr967 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 18:36 https://imgur.com/a/7woKtMc

Spotted this when out in Leeds. Impossible to press the button without crossing the stop line. Luckily, it also has a sensor so pressing the button isn't normally necessary. In fact I don't think the sensor or button is even needed here. Location: https://goo.gl/maps/3gyh4BCNzboPTCNt6
Surely you get a green light at the same time as the main carriageway to your right, so what is the point of the button?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.80953 ... 384!8i8192
Missed an opportunity here for the first ever cycle track panel on gantry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.81079 ... 384!8i8192
LLCS on a temporary light, never seen that before either.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Bryn666 »

jervi wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 23:33
AlexBr967 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 18:36 https://imgur.com/a/7woKtMc

Spotted this when out in Leeds. Impossible to press the button without crossing the stop line. Luckily, it also has a sensor so pressing the button isn't normally necessary. In fact I don't think the sensor or button is even needed here. Location: https://goo.gl/maps/3gyh4BCNzboPTCNt6
Surely you get a green light at the same time as the main carriageway to your right, so what is the point of the button?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.80953 ... 384!8i8192
Missed an opportunity here for the first ever cycle track panel on gantry.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.81079 ... 384!8i8192
LLCS on a temporary light, never seen that before either.
Manchester beat you to that one! There's a cycle lane sign on the gantry approaching Mancunian Way from Downing Street.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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AlexBr967 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 18:36Spotted this when out in Leeds. Impossible to press the button without crossing the stop line. Luckily, it also has a sensor so pressing the button isn't normally necessary. In fact I don't think the sensor or button is even needed here. Location: https://goo.gl/maps/3gyh4BCNzboPTCNt6
I don't like this push button placement for exactly that reason, and it seems fairly standard of Leeds at the moment. It's also become fairly common in Liverpool as well, with exactly the same results - in most places, if you were to cycle to the button, comfortably press it and then wait, your front wheel would most definitely be in the path of crossing traffic or fouling a pedestrian crossing. I've also heard the same argument tabled against push button placement at Toucan crossings, and I think it's an argument with merit that I'd never really thought about prior to that.

The push button in addition to the AGD though I don't mind. It serves two purposes, one as a back-up detection option and the other as a confirmation via the demand confirmation light. I'd much rather use one with the larger illuminated 'WAIT' panel, though, than the red ring type confirmation lamps, and I'd have it on an angle where the illuminated 'WAIT' is clearly visible on approach.
jervi wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 23:33Surely you get a green light at the same time as the main carriageway to your right, so what is the point of the button?
Unless there's no motor traffic to call that stage, especially if the signals revert to all red or remain on the last stage demanded. I know that's an unlikely situation knowing this site, though! I suppose there's also the option that the cycle detection here might actually call the stage for the cycle phase quicker than it would do for motor traffic or something along those lines.

Looking around on GSV, it looks like there isn't any general vehicle detection (perhaps the site is pushed around via SCOOT 24/7 or there's something I'm not seeing on GSV) and some of the other cycle facilities in that area also have no detection, so I'd suggest there is a reason for this one. It seems strange they'd go to the expense of putting in a FLIR video detector if it was going to serve no purpose, especially when they've not installed it on some of the other cycle approaches.
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jervi
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jervi »

traffic-light-man wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 19:36
AlexBr967 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 18:36Spotted this when out in Leeds. Impossible to press the button without crossing the stop line. Luckily, it also has a sensor so pressing the button isn't normally necessary. In fact I don't think the sensor or button is even needed here. Location: https://goo.gl/maps/3gyh4BCNzboPTCNt6
I don't like this push button placement for exactly that reason, and it seems fairly standard of Leeds at the moment. It's also become fairly common in Liverpool as well, with exactly the same results - in most places, if you were to cycle to the button, comfortably press it and then wait, your front wheel would most definitely be in the path of crossing traffic or fouling a pedestrian crossing. I've also heard the same argument tabled against push button placement at Toucan crossings, and I think it's an argument with merit that I'd never really thought about prior to that.

The push button in addition to the AGD though I don't mind. It serves two purposes, one as a back-up detection option and the other as a confirmation via the demand confirmation light. I'd much rather use one with the larger illuminated 'WAIT' panel, though, than the red ring type confirmation lamps, and I'd have it on an angle where the illuminated 'WAIT' is clearly visible on approach.
jervi wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 23:33Surely you get a green light at the same time as the main carriageway to your right, so what is the point of the button?
Unless there's no motor traffic to call that stage, especially if the signals revert to all red or remain on the last stage demanded. I know that's an unlikely situation knowing this site, though! I suppose there's also the option that the cycle detection here might actually call the stage for the cycle phase quicker than it would do for motor traffic or something along those lines.

Looking around on GSV, it looks like there isn't any general vehicle detection (perhaps the site is pushed around via SCOOT 24/7 or there's something I'm not seeing on GSV) and some of the other cycle facilities in that area also have no detection, so I'd suggest there is a reason for this one. It seems strange they'd go to the expense of putting in a FLIR video detector if it was going to serve no purpose, especially when they've not installed it on some of the other cycle approaches.
Yeah that is strange. I would imagine phases don't need to be called for, plus I'd imagine this phase runs with the traffic coming the other direction. PBUs are often installed being redundant, so maybe it is just that. They didn't go the effort of giving it it's own post thou, so clearly not that important.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

All the nearside and repeater indicators have a cycle and pedestrian on them at this installation all except this one which only has a pedestrian. Bizarre how a botch like that can even happen given how they were all installed together.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

L.J.D wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 16:03 All the nearside and repeater indicators have a cycle and pedestrian on them at this installation all except this one which only has a pedestrian. Bizarre how a botch like that can even happen given how they were all installed together.
A series of folks being unobservant before completing the commissioning by the looks of things! I've noticed this happen quite a few times with casual replacements, where the contractor appears to have failed to notice the need for a Toucan legend and then it also hasn't been picked up following the work, so it just ends up with the wrong indicator on one side.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Jonathan24 »

This situation has always felt slightly dangerous to me - traffic lights on a filter lane coupled with a give way.

The main road is a very busy road but these traffic lights (for turning left) always remain on green, irrespective of whether the traffic on the main road also has a green signal (the signals for all other turns from the junction do turn to red when other movements are on green, as expected). The theory is traffic turning left would then give way to traffic on the main road but there is no give way sign (other than on the road) and I wonder if the presence of a green light on that movement might mean that people take less care when turning left than they otherwise should (I know they should always give way, even with a green traffic light, but still...)
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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Jonathan24 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 23:43 This situation has always felt slightly dangerous to me - traffic lights on a filter lane coupled with a give way.

The main road is a very busy road but these traffic lights (for turning left) always remain on green, irrespective of whether the traffic on the main road also has a green signal (the signals for all other turns from the junction do turn to red when other movements are on green, as expected). The theory is traffic turning left would then give way to traffic on the main road but there is no give way sign (other than on the road) and I wonder if the presence of a green light on that movement might mean that people take less care when turning left than they otherwise should (I know they should always give way, even with a green traffic light, but still...)

This is a reasonably common layout - presumably the lights go red for the pedestrian crossing - but I think the secondary signal at the give way line is probably ill advised!

A couple of other examples, one with similarly dodgy secondary placement:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95756 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.94404 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy »

These ones only turn green when the adjacent signals are, rendering the give way lines redundant, however many years ago the A205 didn't have separate phases so a conflict was possible when opposing traffic turned right.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by ReissOmari »

This might sound silly, but are there any rules when it comes to the types of hoods used on traffic signals? I've noticed sometimes that primary signals have secondary signal hoods on them, which of course limits visibility if you're at the stop line, plus it just looks plain ugly. I can think of this one and this one off the top of my head

Is this just a botch and does this happen around the country frequently?
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

Jonathan24 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 23:43 This situation has always felt slightly dangerous to me - traffic lights on a filter lane coupled with a give way.
It's very common for a left turn slip like these to give way to right turners from the opposing approach, but less so for them to give way to everything coming from the right.

Ones that come to mind where they do function solely as a pedestrian crossing, giving way to all from the right, are here, here, here, here and here.
ReissOmari wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 08:09 This might sound silly, but are there any rules when it comes to the types of hoods used on traffic signals? I've noticed sometimes that primary signals have secondary signal hoods on them, which of course limits visibility if you're at the stop line, plus it just looks plain ugly. I can think of this one and this one off the top of my head

Is this just a botch and does this happen around the country frequently?
No rules, though primary hoods and secondary hoods would normally be used as the names suggest, with two exceptions: closely associated secondaries, and secondaries in a closely-associated position at pedestrian crossings (i.e. most) should typically use primary hoods.

It bugs me when hoods are the wrong type, but you do sometimes see it if the contractor has put the wrong set of hoods on the wrong head at a site and then it hasn't been noticed and picked up subsequently. I'm not sure how you can miss something like that, but it clearly happens!
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Gareth
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth »

The contemporary guidance is for tunnel visors on signals at the farside of the junction and cutaway visors for everything else, including mast arm signals regardless of position.

Until the early nineties (in Liverpool, at least), it was cutaway visors for primary signals and tunnel visors for secondary signals, regardless of where they were positioned.

Interestingly, much of the rest of the world don't tend to have the distinction and will usually use one type of visors for all signals. Any variations are more often due to different brands of signal heads. Australia & New Zealand are places that do though; presumably a hangover from the early days, when they essentially used UK standard signals.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jervi »

Went out for a cycle today via Horsham. Some of the traffic signals on Albian Way (A281) have been replaced in the past couple of years, but I haven't really looked at the new installation until today and I've noticed some very very strange things with them.

Somehow these new signals all feature LLCS (Low level Cycle Signals), despite it being a dual carriageway and not many people brave cycling along it other than myself. These LLCS do feature early releases which is great.

So onto the strange things.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06284 ... 384!8i8192
Ignoring the incorrect keep left sign, I can't quite get my head around how they signal the ahead / left. Both lanes go right but the left lane can also go ahead. The left most signal features a no left turn, whilst the right signal features a mandatory right. Left signal features a full bulb and right aspect whilst the right one only features a right aspect. Far side signal is duplicate of near side left and the LLCSs duplicate the main signal on their main sides minus the aspects. Surely the correct way to sign this would just be a no left turn on both signals, and also a full bulb along with the right aspect.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06297 ... 384!8i8192
Approaching from the A281 there is the incorrect keep left sign (consistency is key). This approach is a little better but still very strange. This time they decided to put a right aspect on the left signal as well as the right.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06270 ... 384!8i8192
From this approach, I think all movements share the same stage, so unclear why a left aspect is needed, along with the mandatory left turn on the left signals and no left turn on the far side signals, which is missing from the nearside right side & LLCS.

The other A281 approach seems to be generally correct.

So onto the next junction...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06433 ... 384!8i8192
This is the one that got me interested in the new signals since its a completed ballsup here.
Cycles here can make a left turn, however none of the signs exempt cycles from the "ahead only"/"no left turn" restrictions. The no left turn sign on approach to the junction is missing the supplement plate.
The main signals for the "ahead" traffic have a "no left turn" and "ahead only" signs attached, however using the two is useless since ahead only bans left turns... These should be IMO a "no left" and "no right" with "except cycles" under the no left turn. The LLSC also has "ahead only" covered up, I presume someone noticed the balls up when they were installing it.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06471 ... 384!8i8192
This approach isn't too bad. Except the LLSC should duplicate the main signal. Here the main signals have "right only", whilst the LLSC has "no left turn". Not too much to complain about though.

The other approaches here seem to be fine.

rant over.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Skipsy »

The arrows on this signal are really weirdly misaligned
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

jervi wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 00:00 Went out for a cycle today via Horsham. Some of the traffic signals on Albian Way (A281) have been replaced in the past couple of years, but I haven't really looked at the new installation until today and I've noticed some very very strange things with them.
Another horrendous misuse of box signs and substitute green arrows... Most of those sites could be made so much neater and clearer just by following the regulations and guidance.

A LLCS box sign arrangement can be different to the main head, but generally only if the restriction on the main head doesn't apply to cyclists. Typically this would apply to situations where you'd have an 'except cycles' on the regular head, so you'd omit the box signs completely on the LLCS.

I'm not actually sure if the presence of a LLCS means you can get away with showing a green arrow on the regular heads where you would normally need a full green, but any box signs would still need exception plates as they apply to the whole approach as per usual.

I did also ponder whether you could have an arrangement with a green cycle aspect which is on the same phase as a green arrow in order to allow an exception for cycles without needing box signs, i.e. using a Red/Amber/Green Left Arrow/Green Cycle aspect arrangement to allow cycles to turn right, for instance. I don't think I've seen it done for this purpose, but I can't see why it wouldn't conform to the regs.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jervi »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.82944 ... 384!8i8192

Kinda comes under this topic. But certainly botched temporary traffic signals. These are no longer here, and somehow I never went through here whilst they were here but just discovered them on GSV.

The Pelican crossing 40m down the road (which is also botched) was out of service for a few weeks whilst building works took place, so they put a temporary pedestrian crossing a little bit up the road. The only issue is that it puts it about 20m away from a traffic signal controlled junction with a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Absolutely stupid and confusing set up as it would just cause extra delays and confusion.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.82945 ... 384!8i8192 This is the Pelican crossing down the road from it. The left kerb markings are totally incorrect. Double yellow lines in addition to zig zags, and then in addition to that a mandatory cycle lane marking too. Also the "look left" and "look right" markings are missing the arrows.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

I'm not sure whats going on here it's not even a bus lane! So what the signals are implying is a mystery ? Buses go on red ? Yes there's two bus gates further down but as they state on signage it's only certain times and access is granted all time to businesses and property 24/7. They've messed up alot of box signs on this scheme around Leeds.

Also good luck to the pub when it comes to changing the bulb for the exterior lighting unit here :lol:
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by tom66 »

L.J.D wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 16:44 I'm not sure whats going on here it's not even a bus lane! So what the signals are implying is a mystery ? Buses go on red ? Yes there's two bus gates further down but as they state on signage it's only certain times and access is granted all time to businesses and property 24/7. They've messed up alot of box signs on this scheme around Leeds.
I think this sign just got left behind when the bus lane was replaced by a cycle lane. Formerly this was one way for motorists, but buses could travel on a reserved lane in the opposite direction.

The two arrows on the left are extra-unclear as well.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

There's two signals at this junction that had to be moved further back in new NAL sockets because the heads kept been bashed apart by turning buses and lorries all the time. Everytime I saw them before they moved them in the heads were always damaged and parts missing and knocked out of alignment. They must of underestimated turning paths with high sided vehicles when installing them due to the lack of kerb.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

L.J.D wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 14:21this junction
I couldn't help but notice this site just up the road with seemingly no conflicts. Are they just there to manage entry through the bus gate?
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