Botched Traffic Signals

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pjr10th
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

https://maps.app.goo.gl/EXyG7UhGg2DamTAq6

This junction in Durham City has recently been upgraded as part of a resurfacing works. On the GSV at time of writing you can see both the old and the new layouts. There's a botch, but have a few queries for discussion first:

(1) Is that a permitted staggered crossing? The crossing island seems too small. If it is permitted, this could be a useful layout in many places.
(2) under the new HC rules, are drivers obliged to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross on the arms without a crossing? Or just on one of them?

Now the botches:
(3) DCC replaced the pedestrian signals with new farsides, despite their general policy being to introduce nearsides at new junctions. Not necessarily a botch, but an odd choice and I wonder what made them do it.
(4) the lights facing drivers coming up the hill have a left filter arrow, despite the two lanes being 'ahead' and 'right'.

The big botch:
(5) it seems the pedestrian call buttons have broken and are now permanently fixed to call. Even when no pedestrian is waiting, the lights will flip to the pedestrian stage, leaving an unfortunate motorist waiting for no-one at a red light. It isn't a funky new pedestrian priority set up either, as the pedestrian stage quickly returns to red, one of the motorist stage goes green, and it will flip back and forth incessantly.
jnty
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jnty »

pjr10th wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 23:22 https://maps.app.goo.gl/EXyG7UhGg2DamTAq6

This junction in Durham City has recently been upgraded as part of a resurfacing works. On the GSV at time of writing you can see both the old and the new layouts. There's a botch, but have a few queries for discussion first:

(1) Is that a permitted staggered crossing? The crossing island seems too small. If it is permitted, this could be a useful layout in many places.


I hope it doesn't proliferate - it seems like a particularly nasty way of squeezing every drop out of motor vehicle capacity at the cost of pedestrian amenity. Not only is it multi stage but there's barely any space on the island so it must be very unpleasant at busy times and goodness knows what it's like if you're in a wheelchair. I wonder if the behaviour you describe is an attempted mitigation for that, but really just making it single stage would be far preferable.
(2) under the new HC rules, are drivers obliged to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross on the arms without a crossing? Or just on one of them?


The rules for traffic light junctions haven't changed. A green light still means "you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing".
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ReissOmari
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by ReissOmari »

pjr10th wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 23:22 The big botch:
(5) it seems the pedestrian call buttons have broken and are now permanently fixed to call. Even when no pedestrian is waiting, the lights will flip to the pedestrian stage, leaving an unfortunate motorist waiting for no-one at a red light. It isn't a funky new pedestrian priority set up either, as the pedestrian stage quickly returns to red, one of the motorist stage goes green, and it will flip back and forth incessantly.
A report the the local council should get this fixed, wouldn't say a botch, just a fault.
ReissOmari..
OliverH
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by OliverH »

lets just a few years later remodel this junction and have a white border between the no turn right and except for busses.
pjr10th
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

L.J.D wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 01:30 Gone now I think but isn't two green arrows on both approaches green at the same time a botch ?

Surely it would just be safer to let one arm at a time go. Also candidate for unique signals thread because I've never seen a set up like that before.
Possibly confusing as drivers might think they have priority over oncoming traffic when turning right. Imo an amber flashing arrow would solve the problem, but not permitted in the UK.

We have this set up in Jersey. As you can sort of see from the Street View imagery exiting Grosvenor St, the Jersey driver will filter in turn here, rather than asserting their priority if turning left.
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1838694 ... 312!8i6656

However, same set up with the signals here but both directions go separately, presumably because of turning circles. https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1896519 ... 312!8i6656
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Gareth
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth »

Google Maps suggests that the new signals at that site have the same set up ...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2VtssjbawoDuq4Zh6

Liverpool has form on this sort of botch. Here's another one I think I've linked to previously...

Dock Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8nSy9CdKqFcmkGJC6

I don't even think flashing amber arrows would be necessary here (if they were allowed, that is). Just a standard green should be used. The No Entry signs should be enough, as they would be on any unsignalised intersection.
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L.J.D
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

Gareth wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 17:21 Google Maps suggests that the new signals at that site have the same set up ...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2VtssjbawoDuq4Zh6

Liverpool has form on this sort of botch. Here's another one I think I've linked to previously...

Dock Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8nSy9CdKqFcmkGJC6

I don't even think flashing amber arrows would be necessary here (if they were allowed, that is). Just a standard green should be used. The No Entry signs should be enough, as they would be on any unsignalised intersection.
I guess it's because most councils don't maintain No Entry signs correctly even in the first link shown there's only one either side which there should be two and they aren't aligned great either. Amount of times I see no entry signs missing or lights broken on them or knocked away from where they supposed to be pointing in areas is unreal. But like you say if properly signed it shouldn't be an issue. I do prefer the neater arrangement of now having them on the backs of signal poles its more clearer at signals.
Alex_7753
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Alex_7753 »

pjr10th wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 23:22 https://maps.app.goo.gl/EXyG7UhGg2DamTAq6

This junction in Durham City has recently been upgraded as part of a resurfacing works. On the GSV at time of writing you can see both the old and the new layouts. There's a botch, but have a few queries for discussion first:

Anyone else notice this too? Amber lense missing and the green has been 'replaced?'

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.772829, ... 384!8i8192
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MotorwayGuy
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy »

jnty wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 07:41
pjr10th wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 23:22 https://maps.app.goo.gl/EXyG7UhGg2DamTAq6

This junction in Durham City has recently been upgraded as part of a resurfacing works. On the GSV at time of writing you can see both the old and the new layouts. There's a botch, but have a few queries for discussion first:

(1) Is that a permitted staggered crossing? The crossing island seems too small. If it is permitted, this could be a useful layout in many places.


I hope it doesn't proliferate - it seems like a particularly nasty way of squeezing every drop out of motor vehicle capacity at the cost of pedestrian amenity. Not only is it multi stage but there's barely any space on the island so it must be very unpleasant at busy times and goodness knows what it's like if you're in a wheelchair. I wonder if the behaviour you describe is an attempted mitigation for that, but really just making it single stage would be far preferable.
(2) under the new HC rules, are drivers obliged to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross on the arms without a crossing? Or just on one of them?


The rules for traffic light junctions haven't changed. A green light still means "you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing".
That central island is smaller than it ideally should be, but as it's an existing layout it looks like they've just replaced the old signal equipment like for like. One difference is the strange decision to double up on the push buttons, which take up more space in an already very cramped area and could be confused as to which crossing they are linked to. Nobody is ever going to press the one at the far end that justifies a full-height pole for its existence.

I also assume the new ones use a left filter instead of the 45-degree ones the original signals had, but the left lane is marked with an ahead arrow and the right with a right.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 22:42 One difference is the strange decision to double up on the push buttons, which take up more space in an already very cramped area and could be confused as to which crossing they are linked to. Nobody is ever going to press the one at the far end that justifies a full-height pole for its existence.
That's perfectly standard, the right-hand push button should be fitted with a tactile cone. The 4m pole for only a push button is clutter though, I agree, it could've easily been a 2m stub pole by the looks of it. The pole with the secondary mounted to it probably could've been a stub as well, with the secondary mounted on the 4m pole that already has the ped head on it.
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Jonathan24
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Jonathan24 »

Alex_7753 wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 20:04
pjr10th wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 23:22 https://maps.app.goo.gl/EXyG7UhGg2DamTAq6

This junction in Durham City has recently been upgraded as part of a resurfacing works. On the GSV at time of writing you can see both the old and the new layouts. There's a botch, but have a few queries for discussion first:

Anyone else notice this too? Amber lense missing and the green has been 'replaced?'

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.772829, ... 384!8i8192
That's certainly one way of "replacing" the green!
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0700805 ... 312!8i6656
Solid red/green aspects for pedestrians. Very strange.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Chris Bertram »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0700805 ... 312!8i6656
Solid red/green aspects for pedestrians. Very strange.
If you look carefully, you will see that there is in fact a pedestrian figure there, but it's not very effective, and the green man will be the same. You can find these in various places - I think the stencil is *behind* the glass rather than in front of it, so light leaks through it giving the impression of a ball signal. It must be one particular manufacturer whose signals are of poor quality in this regard.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Big L »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0700805 ... 312!8i6656
Solid red/green aspects for pedestrians. Very strange.
You can see the red man figure. Just the blanking very worn out I imagine.
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L.J.D
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:53
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0700805 ... 312!8i6656
Solid red/green aspects for pedestrians. Very strange.
If you look carefully, you will see that there is in fact a pedestrian figure there, but it's not very effective, and the green man will be the same. You can find these in various places - I think the stencil is *behind* the glass rather than in front of it, so light leaks through it giving the impression of a ball signal. It must be one particular manufacturer whose signals are of poor quality in this regard.
It was actually a major Peek Elite issue because they put the mask on the outside of the lense so it was exposed to the elements and they'd either peal off or just wear down and turn into a blob seen it loads of times especially in London.
Likely just poor maintenance.

Nowadays with the TLED kit they've changed it so they are situated behind the lense like Siemens Helios have always done.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:03 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0700805 ... 312!8i6656
Solid red/green aspects for pedestrians. Very strange.
There's a lot of those across Lancs, mainly because of the amount of sites with that particular era of Peek Elites and farside peds. Another common problem with Elites is the lenses burning through on aspects which are lit for long periods of time, which is generally consigned to the early batches before the problem was rectified. Vehicle greens at ped crossings and ped reds at little used ped facilities are often victims of this.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by katie_lou_lou »

What on earth is this traffic signal in Hertford?
IMG_7253.jpg
Just been replaced like for like - in the previous version, however, the left hand filter went out when the centre green and right hand filter came on (there is no right filter on it's own as traffic from the right doesn't have a filter at all).
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Gareth
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth »

I'm surprised they don't just put the right arrow where the normal green is. I assume that puny alley gets its own separate green.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

katie_lou_lou wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 20:52 What on earth is this traffic signal in Hertford?

IMG_7253.jpg

Just been replaced like for like - in the previous version, however, the left hand filter went out when the centre green and right hand filter came on (there is no right filter on it's own as traffic from the right doesn't have a filter at all).
Almost like a T-junction. (excluding that alley) It's not uncommon for a left filter to be displayed on the side road, during the main road protected right turn stage. But it looks like the traffic engineers were too lazy to set it up properly so that the filter is not displayed when the traffic light itself is green.
I am guessing the right filter only ever goes out if there's someone waiting in the alley?
In my opinion, there's no need in a protected right turn stage, as oncoming alley traffic is most likely very low.
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L.J.D
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

Buses and Taxis can't turn right there because its a one way street only cyclists can so I'm unsure why that exemption plate is in there. If you look at the other signals behind there's just a cycle exemption so I'm guessing its a bad botch.
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