A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

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wrinkly
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by wrinkly » Sat Feb 17, 2018 00:44

Sefton Council has succeeded in getting a judicial review into HE's non-inclusion of a tunnel option:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-43085594

http://southport.qlocal.co.uk/southport ... 028385.htm

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jackal
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:54

How can Sefton MBC possibly imagine that HE have breached a legal duty by not consulting on an option some six times the available budget?! Their fancy QCs have done well to get them their day in court, but this frivolous case is a complete waste of time and taxpayers' money.

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:55

The entire scheme is seemingly that. Naff junctions at either end and the destruction of a country park to just shift a traffic jam off one dual carriageway to another.

If the Rimrose Valley Route was a fully GSJed M58 to the docks then it would be worth it but this is entirely fudge.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by SteveA30 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 19:57

Are HE under some kind of behind the scenes pressure to push this through? They don't normally propose new roads through parks in urban areas these days.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by fras » Sun Feb 18, 2018 21:52

Just a look on the OS map shows how attractive this Rimrose Country Park is to a roads developer who has only a small budget - No property demolition, virtually nothing in the way, easy country etc etc. An alternative is harder, and inevitably more expensive, but I suppose could be built if the A59 south from Switch Island to Aintree is used, then take over the disused railway and go across to the large roundabout on Princess Way at Seaforth. For me, it all comes down to what we value in well-established urban areas - keeping existing housing and factories and using some free space like the country park, or keeping the park and knocking down at least some houses and offices. Very difficult !!

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 23:00

The uninspiringly titled SUPERPORT (everything refers to it in shouty caps) seems to be seen as a massive development that access must be improved to no matter what, but it also seems to be something they want doing on the cheap.

Sacrificing urban parkland for a rubbish and likely to be congested at grade road seems a very naff trade off to me.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal » Wed Jul 25, 2018 17:45

fras wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 21:52
Just a look on the OS map shows how attractive this Rimrose Country Park is to a roads developer who has only a small budget - No property demolition, virtually nothing in the way

Perhaps not:

"Families face losing their homes to make way for proposed new road".

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... s-14946441

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 16:14

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oB5R8 ... sp=sharing

My suggestions for an online improvement to the A5036 including a mix of GSJ and at-grade junctions as space permits. Also fixes Switch Island.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Johnathan404 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 16:26

One of the outstanding problems with the A5036 and also the issues around Switch Island is that ‘A5036’ is a terrible number. I have driven it many times and still have to check this thread title every time I write it out.

‘A5036’ is a number you apply for administrative benefit, not something you’re expecting people to follow to what is already an important freight destination. Ignoring all the practical issues, if it were ‘follow the M57 from Tarbock to the docks’, you would at least stand a chance of remembering what you’re looking for on the signs.

The first time I tried to get to the docks, I remember getting to Switch Island and thinking the A5036 couldn’t be my exit because there’s no way a key route would have such a ridiculous number.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 13:12

Johnathan404 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 16:26
One of the outstanding problems with the A5036 and also the issues around Switch Island is that ‘A5036’ is a terrible number. I have driven it many times and still have to check this thread title every time I write it out.

‘A5036’ is a number you apply for administrative benefit, not something you’re expecting people to follow to what is already an important freight destination. Ignoring all the practical issues, if it were ‘follow the M57 from Tarbock to the docks’, you would at least stand a chance of remembering what you’re looking for on the signs.

The first time I tried to get to the docks, I remember getting to Switch Island and thinking the A5036 couldn’t be my exit because there’s no way a key route would have such a ridiculous number.
The A565 could have been rerouted but that would have been a hell of a dogleg.

Given the A580 has no problems splitting in two in Liverpool maybe the A59 should have done the same :laugh:
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Robert Kilcoyne » Thu Sep 20, 2018 16:56

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 13:12
Johnathan404 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 16:26
One of the outstanding problems with the A5036 and also the issues around Switch Island is that ‘A5036’ is a terrible number. I have driven it many times and still have to check this thread title every time I write it out.

‘A5036’ is a number you apply for administrative benefit, not something you’re expecting people to follow to what is already an important freight destination. Ignoring all the practical issues, if it were ‘follow the M57 from Tarbock to the docks’, you would at least stand a chance of remembering what you’re looking for on the signs.

The first time I tried to get to the docks, I remember getting to Switch Island and thinking the A5036 couldn’t be my exit because there’s no way a key route would have such a ridiculous number.
The A565 could have been rerouted but that would have been a hell of a dogleg.

Given the A580 has no problems splitting in two in Liverpool maybe the A59 should have done the same :laugh:
I would do the following:-
Reroute the A59 from Liverpool city centre up the A565 as far as Seaforth, then up the A5036 and Dunnings Bridge Road to Switch Island;
Extend the A580 over the current A59 Scotland Road into the city centre;
Make the A59 between the A580 at Kirkdale and Switch Island a four digit A road;
Make the A580 "spur" (Breck Road / Townsend Avenue etc.) a four digit A road.

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Fenlander » Thu Sep 20, 2018 18:58

Runumber it as M58(A), well we do the opposite already so why not?

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by wrinkly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 17:07

The High Court has rejected Sefton Council's challenge to the non-inclusion of a tunnel in the options.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/hu ... t-15424931

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/seft ... nsultation

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by mikehindsonevans » Fri Nov 16, 2018 19:45

About time too.

I recall Rimrose Valley as a tip, but I may be wrong; to quote Wikipaedia, this is not the first time that a road has been planned there:

There were also plans for a large ring road to link the motorways at Switch Island, running across fields to the north of the Sefton estate with the centre of Bootle and the landward side of Crosby, along a corridor of land which included the Rimrose Valley. The council compulsorily purchased land along this corridor but the road was never built. There is a large mound of earth next to the small church near the Cabbage Inn (near the present fire station); which shows the start of the earthworks for the flyover linking the proposed ring road to the goods depot on the railway line near the Girobank building on Netherton Way. The proposed ring road is shown on some old Liverpool A to Z street plans.

The unused land in the Rimrose Valley was made into an area of parkland, and new houses are being built on the old allotments at the other end of the Rimrose Valley in Litherland.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by JonB2028 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 23:01

wrinkly wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 17:07
The High Court has rejected Sefton Council's challenge to the non-inclusion of a tunnel in the options.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/hu ... t-15424931

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/seft ... nsultation
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by c2R » Wed Nov 21, 2018 20:12

I'm not quite sure it is common sense. Yes the port needs better access and yes there's a massive amount of redevelopment that could be done in the port land, but improving the existing dual carraigeway and switch island and redeveloping Birkenhead which already has good accesses would surely make more sense. Particularly as the road being proposed is low capacity and at grade....i can't see the benefit...!
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by JonB2028 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 22:43

c2R wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 20:12
I'm not quite sure it is common sense. Yes the port needs better access and yes there's a massive amount of redevelopment that could be done in the port land, but improving the existing dual carraigeway and switch island and redeveloping Birkenhead which already has good accesses would surely make more sense. Particularly as the road being proposed is low capacity and at grade....i can't see the benefit...!
Fair enough. I was referring to the principles of the judgement, that affordability is a valid factor to take into account and that's for HE/Government to decide not the courts, rather than the specifics of the scheme.

This article explains the legal arguments and decision in a bit more detail.
http://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/ ... &Itemid=24
Last edited by JonB2028 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 22:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by c2R » Wed Nov 21, 2018 22:45

Absolutely and I agree with that too. Its no Stonehenge or blackdown hills!
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Gareth » Wed Nov 21, 2018 23:29

c2R wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 20:12
I'm not quite sure it is common sense. Yes the port needs better access and yes there's a massive amount of redevelopment that could be done in the port land, but improving the existing dual carraigeway and switch island and redeveloping Birkenhead which already has good accesses would surely make more sense. Particularly as the road being proposed is low capacity and at grade....i can't see the benefit...!
Also, the alignment isn't exactly optimal for getting to Switch Island, although if it was a motorway/expressway rather than fudge, the detour might be worthwhile.

Could it perhaps be possible to grade-separate the A5090? For a lot of its length, it seems to be D4 with a parallel single lane road each side for the houses; from which the mainline is separated by railings. Could the mainline be sunk, or at least have diveunders at the junctions?

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal » Wed Jan 22, 2020 14:16

Highways England were soliciting comments until 1 January 2020. The feedback is unsurprisingly supportive of leaving the park as it is:

https://a5036portofliverpoolaccess.commonplace.is/

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