Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

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Alderpoint
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Alderpoint » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:16

A303Chris wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 08:46
Why I fully agree with the main route being the A421, the old road number seems a bit weird especially this
The existing A428 will become the A1428 between Great North Road in St Neots and Cambridge Road junction
So we have the existing St Neots by pass becoming the A1428 ending on the B4128. Personally I would have renumbered the bypass the B4128 and declassified the B4128 through the town. I just thing A roads ending on 'B' roads unless on the coast or end of a valley in a mountainous area just looks wrong.
I suspect the A1428 will continue to the junction with the new A421, which will be just east of the existing roundabout with the B4128.
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by c2R » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:44

Yes, my reading of it is that there is to be a multiplex with the A1428 between the old and new bypasses.

Given there's not exactly a shortage of B road numbers, I'd have probably numbered it something else rather than creating an A1428/B1428 multiplex, but there we go.
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by jackal » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:22

The multiplex will be a few hundred metres between the existing Cambridge Rd roundabout and the new Cambridge Rd dumbbell.

When they say Cambridge Rd junction they mean the new GSJ rather than the existing rbt. So the multiplex will be numbered A1428, and that number will end at the A421 GSJ rather than on the B1428.

General arrangement: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... _Plans.pdf

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Osthagen » Fri Sep 17, 2021 14:32

jackal wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:22
The multiplex will be a few hundred metres between the existing Cambridge Rd roundabout and the new Cambridge Rd dumbbell.

When they say Cambridge Rd junction they mean the new GSJ rather than the existing rbt. So the multiplex will be numbered A1428, and that number will end at the A421 GSJ rather than on the B1428.

General arrangement: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... _Plans.pdf
So presumably, the multiplex will be signed in Axx/Axx fashion, as the shorter ones tend to be?
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by c2R » Fri Sep 17, 2021 21:44

Osthagen wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 14:32
jackal wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:22
The multiplex will be a few hundred metres between the existing Cambridge Rd roundabout and the new Cambridge Rd dumbbell.

When they say Cambridge Rd junction they mean the new GSJ rather than the existing rbt. So the multiplex will be numbered A1428, and that number will end at the A421 GSJ rather than on the B1428.

General arrangement: https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... _Plans.pdf
So presumably, the multiplex will be signed in Axx/Axx fashion, as the shorter ones tend to be?
I very much doubt that any B road multiplex here will be actually signed.
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by skiddaw05 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 23:17

Is it planned to have a connection from the B1046 to the new road - the plan refers to emergency maintenance access and egress? Or to join it to the existing bypass, which would be a sensible thing to do to take B1046 through traffic from the southern edges of St Neots

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by KeithW » Fri Sep 17, 2021 23:35

skiddaw05 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 23:17
Is it planned to have a connection from the B1046 to the new road - the plan refers to emergency maintenance access and egress? Or to join it to the existing bypass, which would be a sensible thing to do to take B1046 through traffic from the southern edges of St Neots
I very much doubt there will be a new junction, the B1046 goes over the current A428 on a flyover and no such junction is included in the plans. It may be that an emergency access to the new road could be added but it really isnt that much of a diversion to take the B1046 to Barford Road. Its not exactly heavily used and with the Eltisley junction sorted there will be even less traffic I suspect.

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by wrinkly » Sun Sep 19, 2021 01:45

Browsing documents about this scheme on the Planning Inspectorate website, I came across this long note by Cambs CC and other local authorities. Would anyone who is professionally involved with road design and construction like to comment on the criticisms it makes? Are the local authorities being too nit-picking or have the designers not done their job properly? Or do quibbles like this arise routinely on such schemes?

https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... 0(WRs).pdf

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by KeithW » Sun Sep 19, 2021 14:08

wrinkly wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 01:45
Browsing documents about this scheme on the Planning Inspectorate website, I came across this long note by Cambs CC and other local authorities. Would anyone who is professionally involved with road design and construction like to comment on the criticisms it makes? Are the local authorities being too nit-picking or have the designers not done their job properly? Or do quibbles like this arise routinely on such schemes?

https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... 0(WRs).pdf
Well in at least two cases the problems arise because the council granted planning permission for new housing developments without considering the effect on local and through traffic.
Cambridge Road, St Neots, East bound - on the approach to A428 junction
the modelling predicts an increase of approximately 200 passenger car
units (PCU) in the peak periods to the stretch between Station Road and
the A428 junction. Therefore, CCC requires the junctions on the local road
network to be assessed to ensure that the proposed increase in traffic can
be accommodated.
15 years ago the stretch from Station Road to the A428 was open fields, this is what it looks like now. Note that development is still continuing and has now pretty much reached the current A428.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.22751 ... 2880?hl=en

The same is true of the Madingley Road from Madingley Mulch to the M11 J13. This has been an issue for at least 20 years. I note there is a line item in RIS3 for this which may address the long term issue which is that the junction is a simple half diamond on the A1303. In this case the extra traffic has come from the new developments at Hardwick and Caldecote. If as now seems inevitable 3,500 houses are built on Bourn Airfield it will get a whole lot worse.

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by thatapanydude » Mon Sep 20, 2021 15:29

In terms of the works itself it seems like a compound has been setup on the ex B1043 between Tempsford and Little Barford. Would suggest that it’s getting closer to starting the actual works.
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by thatapanydude » Mon Sep 20, 2021 15:33

KeithW wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 14:08

Well in at least two cases the problems arise because the council granted planning permission for new housing developments without considering the effect on local and through traffic.
Likewise further west of the A428 the new town of Winteringham is slowly being built on ground between the bypass and the ECML which will extend St Neots significantly.

Another positive for the Northern route which allows easy access to St Neots from the new A421.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Al__S » Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:24

wrinkly wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 01:45
Browsing documents about this scheme on the Planning Inspectorate website, I came across this long note by Cambs CC and other local authorities. Would anyone who is professionally involved with road design and construction like to comment on the criticisms it makes? Are the local authorities being too nit-picking or have the designers not done their job properly? Or do quibbles like this arise routinely on such schemes?

https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... 0(WRs).pdf
I've just been having a skim- but I'm no professional. It does seem a very thorough document, going into scathing detail about the inadequacy of the traffic modelling (one highlight- the model output for after all the works has zero cars turning right onto the M11 from the A1303 in the AM peak). Yes maybe there are issues due to permissions for developments but ultimately it appears that the homework of national highways (or whatever this week's name is) has been thoroughly marked and found severely wanting.

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by KeithW » Wed Dec 01, 2021 21:28

Al__S wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:24

I've just been having a skim- but I'm no professional. It does seem a very thorough document, going into scathing detail about the inadequacy of the traffic modelling (one highlight- the model output for after all the works has zero cars turning right onto the M11 from the A1303 in the AM peak). Yes maybe there are issues due to permissions for developments but ultimately it appears that the homework of national highways (or whatever this week's name is) has been thoroughly marked and found severely wanting.
As someone who routinely used the A1303 and A428 into Cambridge all I can ask is - did the traffic modellers ever look at reality on the ground or even on GSV ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21430 ... 6656?hl=en

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:48

KeithW wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 21:28
Al__S wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:24

I've just been having a skim- but I'm no professional. It does seem a very thorough document, going into scathing detail about the inadequacy of the traffic modelling (one highlight- the model output for after all the works has zero cars turning right onto the M11 from the A1303 in the AM peak). Yes maybe there are issues due to permissions for developments but ultimately it appears that the homework of national highways (or whatever this week's name is) has been thoroughly marked and found severely wanting.
As someone who routinely used the A1303 and A428 into Cambridge all I can ask is - did the traffic modellers ever look at reality on the ground or even on GSV ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21430 ... 6656?hl=en
Models are now used to prove anything, if you have a troublesome right turn you just tell the planning authority it's so troublesome no one will bother to make it and the problem has been resolved. Most councils haven't got anyone capable of picking up on this these days but it appears Cambs do.
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by jnty » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:05

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:48
KeithW wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 21:28
Al__S wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:24

I've just been having a skim- but I'm no professional. It does seem a very thorough document, going into scathing detail about the inadequacy of the traffic modelling (one highlight- the model output for after all the works has zero cars turning right onto the M11 from the A1303 in the AM peak). Yes maybe there are issues due to permissions for developments but ultimately it appears that the homework of national highways (or whatever this week's name is) has been thoroughly marked and found severely wanting.
As someone who routinely used the A1303 and A428 into Cambridge all I can ask is - did the traffic modellers ever look at reality on the ground or even on GSV ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21430 ... 6656?hl=en
Models are now used to prove anything, if you have a troublesome right turn you just tell the planning authority it's so troublesome no one will bother to make it and the problem has been resolved. Most councils haven't got anyone capable of picking up on this these days but it appears Cambs do.
And to make sure any survey records the 'correct' answer simply station a man with a spade at the turn to threaten anyone who tries to make it :lol:

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Al__S » Fri Dec 03, 2021 18:33

KeithW wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 21:28
Al__S wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:24

I've just been having a skim- but I'm no professional. It does seem a very thorough document, going into scathing detail about the inadequacy of the traffic modelling (one highlight- the model output for after all the works has zero cars turning right onto the M11 from the A1303 in the AM peak). Yes maybe there are issues due to permissions for developments but ultimately it appears that the homework of national highways (or whatever this week's name is) has been thoroughly marked and found severely wanting.
As someone who routinely used the A1303 and A428 into Cambridge all I can ask is - did the traffic modellers ever look at reality on the ground or even on GSV ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21430 ... 6656?hl=en
If you read the details- the County Council have worked out that the reason is that the model assumes such high levels of congestion on the M11 at Junction 13 that all such traffic would divert instead through Coton to junction 12!

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by KeithW » Fri Dec 03, 2021 19:55

Al__S wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 18:33
If you read the details- the County Council have worked out that the reason is that the model assumes such high levels of congestion on the M11 at Junction 13 that all such traffic would divert instead through Coton to junction 12!
I did and it reminded of a basic adage in the Software Industry. Garbage Garbage Out. If you are not using accurate data you have zero chance of getting a useful output from a modelling system.

That said traffic coming off the M11 at J13 can cause congestion all the way back to J12 and even J11 in the morning rush hour and inbound traffic can queue along the A1303 as far as Madingley Mulch. I have diverted at that point, in that situation I have occasionally turned right at Coton and gone down to J12.

Take a look at Google Earth historical images and you will see how much development has take place since 1980 and if anything the rate of development is accelerating. I believe the County Council are correct, that is what will happen if nothing is done. BUT that will mean addressing the issue of traffic congestion on the Madingley Road.

Madingley Road 2021
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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Gav » Sat Jan 01, 2022 22:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTY5G_4-Wns

in the original opening sequence of auf wiedershien pet series the black cat roundabout featured.....

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by KeithW » Sat Jan 01, 2022 22:55

Gav wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 22:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTY5G_4-Wns

in the original opening sequence of auf wiedershien pet series the black cat roundabout featured.....
That would have been the old A428 through Great Barford and Bedford, at the time the road from Cambridge to the A1 at St Neots was the A45.

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Re: Black Cat - Cambourne rumour?

Post by Truvelo » Sat Jan 01, 2022 23:00

Gav wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 22:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTY5G_4-Wns

in the original opening sequence of auf wiedershien pet series the black cat roundabout featured.....
All the times I've watched it I never even noticed that. I have seen signs for Birmingham on the A428 but they are all west of Bedford. That's the first time I've seen one that far out.
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