A6(NI) dualling to start

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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by Owain »

nowster wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 14:48 Numbering isn't just for locals, who probably just call it "the motorway".
I think you'll find that many of them call it "that there motorway".
A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46 Locals tend to refer to both the entire Belfast-Randalstown route and the Ballymena section as 'the M2'.
That's precisely why it would make sense to renumber it all as M2!
A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23 I've no doubt the locals are fine with it, it's everyone else I'm considering.
It isn't really a problem, all routes are well signed with destinations. I'd be surprised if anyone managed to get lost simply due to there being two unconnected roads called 'M2'.
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin. No motorways were planned for much of the west of Northern Ireland:

Image
Indeed, it was surely down to politics rather than demand. In any other part of the UK, the contest between Londonderry and Coleraine to host a university would have seen the decision made in favour of 'derry, not Coleraine.

I've driven all over Europe, and nowhere have I seen anything like the signage in the Sprucefield area (where access from the M1 to the A1 is signed via the ridiculous and unnecessary A101) or the last-minute notification of the TOTSO on the A5 in Aughnacloy (which I've missed twice because the signage is so poor).

In both places an outsider could easily feel that the signmakers don't think that anybody should be driving to Dublin!
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by bothar »

In both places an outsider could easily feel that the signmakers don't think that anybody should be driving to Dublin!
Like the DDR routes, where you have Berlin: Haupstadt der DDR on the signs and just one with a small "Westberlin" near the end.

There are also examples of signposts directing traffic on routes that had customs posts 27 years ago. Perhaps they thought if they waited long enough they would reintroduce them.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by A42_Sparks »

One of the interesting aspects about the two separate M2 sections is that neither of them are signed from each other, probably to avoid confusion. Southbound at M2 j11 is simply signed Belfast, Antrim A26. The first mention of the longer M2 section southbound is at the A26 Seven Towers roundabout which is about a mile past the M2 Ballymena bypass.

Northbound at M22 j1 only Coleraine, Ballymena A26 is signed. The first mention of the M2 Ballymena bypass is on the approach to the Seven Towers roundabout.

That brings me to this strange sign at M2 j11 where we have both M1 and M2 signed. Could this be a deliberate 'mistake' to avoid having to put M2 in two different directions? Of course you can follow the A26 from here to reach the M1 at Moira and head into Belfast that way so it isn't technically a mistake.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by lefthandedspanner »

spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23 I've no doubt the locals are fine with it, it's everyone else I'm considering.

Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
On the other hand, had it been built, the M2/M23 junction could have ended up like the M1/M621 or M1/A1(M) junctions in GB, with M23 taking priority because it handled more traffic.
A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46 Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin. No motorways were planned for much of the west of Northern Ireland:
In fairness, the 1960s plans were based on existing traffic movements - in those days the majority of Dublin-bound traffic, particularly HGVs, headed out to Ballygawley on A4 then turned left onto A5, crossed the border at Aughnacloy and used N2 to get to Dublin, as that was the quickest and most reliable way. Any motorway in the A1 corridor would have been delayed until there was a road of similar standard to link to on the other side of the border, which there eventually was many years later in the 1990s; the old N1 was a meander round the coast and through the middle of several town centres, wholly unsuitable for taking an entire motorway's worth of traffic.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by bothar »

lefthandedspanner wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 22:02 In fairness, the 1960s plans were based on existing traffic movements - in those days the majority of Dublin-bound traffic, particularly HGVs, headed out to Ballygawley on A4 then turned left onto A5, crossed the border at Aughnacloy and used N2 to get to Dublin, as that was the quickest and most reliable way. Any motorway in the A1 corridor would have been delayed until there was a road of similar standard to link to on the other side of the border, which there eventually was many years later in the 1990s; the old N1 was a meander round the coast and through the middle of several town centres, wholly unsuitable for taking an entire motorway's worth of traffic.
I find this difficult to understand. Going via Ballygawley is 50% longer and would not be justified on a roads basis, perhaps the customs were less congested or some other reason. Yes, Drogheda was huge bottleneck in the 1960s but trucks typically just went from Dunleer to Collon. The N2 north of Collon was very poor in the 1960s in many places. If trucks did go via Ballygawley it would have reflected the construction of the M1 before the A1 improvements, rather than reflecting previous traffic movements.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by nirs »

A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin.
In the 1950s, when the motorways were planned three times as much traffic leaving Derry was going via Coleraine than over Glenshane Pass. Remember Glenshane Pass was a goat track back then. The last of the A6 wasn't properly modernised until the 70s. That's why the A2 Clooney Road was dualled in the 60s but the A6 was not - the Clooney Road was regarded as the principal road into the city.

Similarly, in the late 50s far more traffic leaving Belfast via Lisburn was going towards Portadown than south towards Newry. Cross-border traffic was almost negligible, in the very low thousands. While I'm sure no sleep was lost over the idea of buildings roads to Dublin, the route decisions made in the early 1960s nevertheless made logical sense in terms of where people were actually going.

A more significant problem, however, was that the plans didn't change as the 60s progressed. Traffic figures in the late 60s show significantly more traffic on the A1 than was the case in the 50s, approaching equality with the western part of the M1. This was typical of the era - I found inertia and an inability to change plans in light of new information to be a big factor in the ultimate failure of the Belfast Urban Motorway.

In the 80s and 90s Roads Service's three biggest projects had a reasonable geographic spread:
• Westlink and M3, Belfast
• Foyle Bridge, Derry
• Dualling the A1

along with the bypasses/throughpasses they built in this era which included:
• Omagh
• Strabane
• Dungannon
• Castledawson
• Ballymoney
• Newry
• Derry (Crescent Link)
• Enniskillen
• Coleraine
• Lisburn
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by AndyB »

A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 21:47 One of the interesting aspects about the two separate M2 sections is that neither of them are signed from each other, probably to avoid confusion. Southbound at M2 j11 is simply signed Belfast, Antrim A26. The first mention of the longer M2 section southbound is at the A26 Seven Towers roundabout which is about a mile past the M2 Ballymena bypass.

Northbound at M22 j1 only Coleraine, Ballymena A26 is signed. The first mention of the M2 Ballymena bypass is on the approach to the Seven Towers roundabout.

That brings me to this strange sign at M2 j11 where we have both M1 and M2 signed. Could this be a deliberate 'mistake' to avoid having to put M2 in two different directions? Of course you can follow the A26 from here to reach the M1 at Moira and head into Belfast that way so it isn't technically a mistake.
There are historical reasons for that, of course. If the M2 had been completed as intended, there would have been no need to sign M2 from M22 J1 as you would have stayed on the M2.

Looking at it the other way, the M2 is an interruption in the A26. If you're going to Coleraine, you'll be taking the A26 again as soon as the M2 ends.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by explo »

nirs wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30
A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin.
In the 1950s, when the motorways were planned three times as much traffic leaving Derry was going via Coleraine than over Glenshane Pass. Remember Glenshane Pass was a goat track back then. The last of the A6 wasn't properly modernised until the 70s. That's why the A2 Clooney Road was dualled in the 60s but the A6 was not - the Clooney Road was regarded as the principal road into the city.

Similarly, in the late 50s far more traffic leaving Belfast via Lisburn was going towards Portadown than south towards Newry. Cross-border traffic was almost negligible, in the very low thousands. While I'm sure no sleep was lost over the idea of buildings roads to Dublin, the route decisions made in the early 1960s nevertheless made logical sense in terms of where people were actually going.

A more significant problem, however, was that the plans didn't change as the 60s progressed. Traffic figures in the late 60s show significantly more traffic on the A1 than was the case in the 50s, approaching equality with the western part of the M1. This was typical of the era - I found inertia and an inability to change plans in light of new information to be a big factor in the ultimate failure of the Belfast Urban Motorway.

In the 80s and 90s Roads Service's three biggest projects had a reasonable geographic spread:
• Westlink and M3, Belfast
• Foyle Bridge, Derry
• Dualling the A1

along with the bypasses/throughpasses they built in this era which included:
• Omagh
• Strabane
• Dungannon
• Castledawson
• Ballymoney
• Newry
• Derry (Crescent Link)
• Enniskillen
• Coleraine
• Lisburn
I do think some lose sight of the intentions of the M1 and M2. They were intended to get people into and out of Belfast, bypassing the current roads. Certainly there were political thoughts at work as to where road funding was allocated, but in reality, why would the government of the time have wanted to build a road (to Dublin) that would encourage people to leave the country, and take their money across the border?
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by bothar »

explo wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 23:03 I do think some lose sight of the intentions of the M1 and M2. They were intended to get people into and out of Belfast, bypassing the current roads. Certainly there were political thoughts at work as to where road funding was allocated, but in reality, why would the government of the time have wanted to build a road (to Dublin) that would encourage people to leave the country, and take their money across the border?
To encourage the people in the south to come into NI and spend their money?
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by RJDG14 »

I was on the Randalstown to Toome section on Tuesday, less than a week after it fully opened, and it's definitely a huge improvement over the poor quality S2 road that it bypasses. The former M22 terminus junction looks pretty weird at the moment, because previously it carried on straight ahead (westwards) as a single carriageway, but the road has now been landscaped and rerouted slightly the left/south, with the old road being offset to the right. I've also noticed that the first couple of miles of the M22 is currently open to all vehicles since the local access turnoff has been temporarily closed. Does this mean that pedestrians, horses and cyclists are in theory currently allowed onto this section?

Dualling has also begun between Derry and Dungiven, and appears to be mostly offline. Most of the existing road on this section is a relatively high S2 standard already, however Dungiven could do with a bypass. I don't believe they have any plans to begin dualling the Glenshane section in the near future, but when they eventually do, I've wondered how they will dual along the hill section to the east of Glenshane, which feels too steep for a high quality D2.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by AndyB »

There's no intention to dual the Castledawson-Dungiven section. While never quiet, it's got far too little traffic to merit dualling. AADT are on Wesley's site somewhere.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by nirs »

RJDG14 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 00:11 I was on the Randalstown to Toome section on Tuesday, less than a week after it fully opened, and it's definitely a huge improvement over the poor quality S2 road that it bypasses. The former M22 terminus junction looks pretty weird at the moment, because previously it carried on straight ahead (westwards) as a single carriageway, but the road has now been landscaped and rerouted slightly the left/south, with the old road being offset to the right.
Here's a still from the contractor's YouTube feed! (search YouTube for "gfjv").
Screen Shot 2019-08-14 at 15.44.43.jpg
I've also noticed that the first couple of miles of the M22 is currently open to all vehicles since the local access turnoff has been temporarily closed. Does this mean that pedestrians, horses and cyclists are in theory currently allowed onto this section?
Yes. It was originally enabled by this legislation, which I assume has been extended a few times since then.

The AADT over Glenshane was 11,700 in 2016. DFI historically regard 18k as the threshold for justifying a dual-carriageway on traffic grounds. The upgrades on either side are likely to attract more traffic so this will probably go up.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by RJDG14 »

Is stopping without a reason also temporarily allowed in theory on this section of the M22, since it seems as though the motorway restrictions have been temporarily removed and there are no clearway signs (only a few hundred yards of the A6 between Randalstown and Londonderry are designated as a clearway, past a park and ride, although I believe there are several miles in County Antrim, where most NI clearways are)? I would imagine it depends on whether the legislation temporarily removes all motorway regulations aside from maybe special road status from this section or if it simply allows prohibited subjects while maintaining other motorway regulations.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by Berk »

I say, the regulations were only suspended for 2 months (from the end of June to early September).

Everyone seems to think it’s indefinite. :? Though I guess it could be extended, in theory at least.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by AndyB »

The authorisation only specifies motor vehicles of classes I, II and X but without the 50cc minimum restriction. It doesn't specify any other relief on motorway restrictions.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by RJDG14 »

bothar wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 18:40
In both places an outsider could easily feel that the signmakers don't think that anybody should be driving to Dublin!
Like the DDR routes, where you have Berlin: Haupstadt der DDR on the signs and just one with a small "Westberlin" near the end.

There are also examples of signposts directing traffic on routes that had customs posts 27 years ago. Perhaps they thought if they waited long enough they would reintroduce them.
I could be wrong on this, but I believe that the majority of autobahns in East Germany during the 1980s were of more or less the standard that they were when first opened during the Nazi period (although with modern markings), as well as having a poor surface due to a lack of maintenance, whereas the busier ones in West Germany had mostly been upgraded during the 1960s.

This picture looks to have been taken at the former border shortly after reunification, and my guess would be that the road in the distance is in (former) West Germany while the foreground was in the former East. The road essentially looks like a low quality D2 A-road:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6227/6353 ... 6397_b.jpg

And here's one (the East German A4, or M4 by our system) somewhere outside of Dresden taken circa-1985, and again the quality looks comparable to some of the lowest standard D2 sections of the A1:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2918/1417 ... 6f6a_z.jpg

I also found this weird image of an autobahn in former East Germany that almost looks as though it was closed for military purposes, and it looks semi-abandoned. Does anyone have an idea why this was?

http://www.militarytrader.com/wp-conten ... justed.jpg

Then there were some, like this one, which were completely abandoned:

https://www.autobahn-online.de/images/1990_03.jpg

In addition, I've read that there were several designated autobahn routes through East Germany for Western citizens to use for vehicle access to West Berlin and wondered if these were of a better standard than the autobahns designed for native Trabant owners, plus I wondered if anyone on here knows what had happened to the sliproads (I'd imagine that they had been blocked off with concrete barriers unless the roads were also open to local traffic).
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by bothar »

RJDG14 wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 22:11 I could be wrong on this, but I believe that the majority of autobahns in East Germany during the 1980s were of more or less the standard that they were when first opened during the Nazi period (although with modern markings), as well as having a poor surface due to a lack of maintenance, whereas the busier ones in West Germany had mostly been upgraded during the 1960s.
I think this was generally true. The A24 from Berlin to Hamburg wasn't finished when the war ended and was completed in 1975 with West German money, so it may have been superior.

The autobahn were grade-separated though, so better than most A roads.
We previously had the Reichsautobahn thread.

In addition, I've read that there were several designated autobahn routes through East Germany for Western citizens to use for vehicle access to West Berlin and wondered if these were of a better standard than the autobahns designed for native Trabant owners, plus I wondered if anyone on here knows what had happened to the sliproads (I'd imagine that they had been blocked off with concrete barriers unless the roads were also open to local traffic).
No, DDR traffic also used these routes. Indeed DDR drivers considered them something of a thrill to drive among international BMWs, Renaults, Fiats etc. There was nothing physically stopping someone driving off at another exit, although I am sure they were patrolled. If you didn't complete your transit in a given time there would be a search for you.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by RJDG14 »

Were the rest stops that Western travellers used along these access routes reserved exclusively for foreign travellers, though? I would imagine so. Also, was there barbed wire on either side of the road for the majority of the distance between the Berlin Wall and the Inner German Border?
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by Frostyj »

A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46
nowster wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 14:48 Numbering isn't just for locals, who probably just call it "the motorway".
Locals tend to refer to both the entire Belfast-Randalstown route and the Ballymena section as 'the M2'.
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23 I've no doubt the locals are fine with it, it's everyone else I'm considering.
It isn't really a problem, all routes are well signed with destinations. I'd be surprised if anyone managed to get lost simply due to there being two unconnected roads called 'M2'.
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin. No motorways were planned for much of the west of Northern Ireland:

Image
That route made more sense given that it passes through many more towns of a reasonable population.

For ex, Limavady which is still waiting on a Dualling from Eglinton. An upgrade which is well needed and should just be done straight to Coleraine.
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Re: A6(NI) dualling to start

Post by RJDG14 »

Frostyj wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 00:38
A42_Sparks wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 16:46
nowster wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 14:48 Numbering isn't just for locals, who probably just call it "the motorway".
Locals tend to refer to both the entire Belfast-Randalstown route and the Ballymena section as 'the M2'.
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23 I've no doubt the locals are fine with it, it's everyone else I'm considering.
It isn't really a problem, all routes are well signed with destinations. I'd be surprised if anyone managed to get lost simply due to there being two unconnected roads called 'M2'.
spacetweek wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 15:23Strange about Ballymoney. Not how I would have expected. Traffic surveys from the time must have found more travel demand between Bf-Coleraine compared to Bf-Derry.
Probably more due to the unionist government at the time. The M2 planned to Coleraine not Derry and the M1 to Dungannon instead of Dublin. No motorways were planned for much of the west of Northern Ireland:

Image
That route made more sense given that it passes through many more towns of a reasonable population.

For ex, Limavady which is still waiting on a Dualling from Eglinton. An upgrade which is well needed and should just be done straight to Coleraine.
While when first opened the M22 was intended to be a spur which would (when complete) run to Castledawson (the western section is now being constructed as D2 A6) while the M2 was going to be a motorway running from Belfast to Coleraine once completed, surely it would make more sense to renumber the existing M22 M2 and rename the Ballymena Bypass the M22?

For some reason the shape of the Ballymena bypass reminds me a lot of the A419 bypass around Swindon, and almost feels like a mini (while higher standard) version of it.
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