M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

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fras
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by fras »

I'm glad to see that additional refuges are being installed.
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Bryn666
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

fras wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 00:02 I'm glad to see that additional refuges are being installed.
Are they ever going to admit that the 2km refuge spacing was the stupidest idea they ever had for smart motorways and eroded virtually all goodwill towards the concept?
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fras
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:00
fras wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 00:02 I'm glad to see that additional refuges are being installed.
Are they ever going to admit that the 2km refuge spacing was the stupidest idea they ever had for smart motorways and eroded virtually all goodwill towards the concept?
But wasn't the original spacing, as advised to the then Minister of Transport for a much shorter interval ? You know more than me, but I'm sure the gap was widened without discussion.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

fras wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 22:37
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:00
fras wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 00:02 I'm glad to see that additional refuges are being installed.
Are they ever going to admit that the 2km refuge spacing was the stupidest idea they ever had for smart motorways and eroded virtually all goodwill towards the concept?
But wasn't the original spacing, as advised to the then Minister of Transport for a much shorter interval ? You know more than me, but I'm sure the gap was widened without discussion.
The spacing on the M42 was 500-800m as directed by site conditions. This was determined to be over-provision especially given the amount of visual overload signals at similar distances gave and that's what led to the 2km figure for refuges and the reliance on MS4s alone instead of gantries every 500m. Just on a practical PR side they should never have agreed to anything beyond 1600m (1 mile) for refuges, regardless of what fancypants risk modelling and policy wonks think. The reason being simple, if people think something isn't safe you won't ever convince them that it is but saying you're never more than 30 seconds away from a refuge is a lot more reassuring from the get go than the cold "refuges are placed at 2km intervals" based on a risk assessment that doesn't factor in the human element of risk perception.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L »

Some of the fourth lane northbound was open this morning. Didn't spot where it started, but I'm guessing it was a lane gain at Stafford services. I'll try to have a look later on my way home.

Progress! Finally!!
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by SJobson »

Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:00 Some of the fourth lane northbound was open this morning. Didn't spot where it started, but I'm guessing it was a lane gain at Stafford services. I'll try to have a look later on my way home.

Progress! Finally!!
Nothing had changed this morning up to J13 northbound where I got off - looking forward to seeing it open at long last.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Vierwielen »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 23:17 ... snip ...

The reason being simple, if people think something isn't safe you won't ever convince them that it is but saying you're never more than 30 seconds away from a refuge is a lot more reassuring from the get go than the cold "refuges are placed at 2km intervals" based on a risk assessment that doesn't factor in the human element of risk perception.
A quick calculation. At 120 km/h, one can cover 2 km in one minute. This means that if refuge areas are 2 km apart, you are never more than 30 seconds from one of them (you might have to go backwards rather than forwards).

... but ...

will someone remind me what the speed limit is on British motorways when expressed in km/h?

Also, it takes a lot longer than 30 seconds to walk one kilometre.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 16:51
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 23:17 ... snip ...

The reason being simple, if people think something isn't safe you won't ever convince them that it is but saying you're never more than 30 seconds away from a refuge is a lot more reassuring from the get go than the cold "refuges are placed at 2km intervals" based on a risk assessment that doesn't factor in the human element of risk perception.
A quick calculation. At 120 km/h, one can cover 2 km in one minute. This means that if refuge areas are 2 km apart, you are never more than 30 seconds from one of them (you might have to go backwards rather than forwards).

... but ...

will someone remind me what the speed limit is on British motorways when expressed in km/h?

Also, it takes a lot longer than 30 seconds to walk one kilometre.
Do you regularly do 120km/h backwards on motorways, then?
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L »

Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:00 Some of the fourth lane northbound was open this morning. Didn't spot where it started, but I'm guessing it was a lane gain at Stafford services. I'll try to have a look later on my way home.

Progress! Finally!!
The extra lane starts at the works unit just north of the services I think.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by ais523 »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 16:51... but ...

will someone remind me what the speed limit is on British motorways when expressed in km/h?
Assuming NSL, 112.6541 km/h.

Some motorways have speed limits below NSL (and in particular, smart motorways without hard shoulders tend to have variable speed limits). The various lower speed limits that can be selected by the VSL algorithm are approximately 96, 80, 64 and 48 km/h.

As Bryn666 mentions, though, it's generally inadvisable to try to reach a refuge that's behind you, when all the traffic on your carriageway is going forwards – if you're just past a refuge you would need to try to reach the next one, rather than going against the flow of traffic.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

ais523 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 20:18
Vierwielen wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 16:51... but ...

will someone remind me what the speed limit is on British motorways when expressed in km/h?
Assuming NSL, 112.6541 km/h.

Some motorways have speed limits below NSL (and in particular, smart motorways without hard shoulders tend to have variable speed limits). The various lower speed limits that can be selected by the VSL algorithm are approximately 96, 80, 64 and 48 km/h.

As Bryn666 mentions, though, it's generally inadvisable to try to reach a refuge that's behind you, when all the traffic on your carriageway is going forwards – if you're just past a refuge you would need to try to reach the next one, rather than going against the flow of traffic.
And if you were in serious difficulty it's not illegal to hit 999 on your mobile and tell them you are blocking a live traffic lane. This little detail is never really made obvious to the public - if you can't make it to a place of safety you have a valid 999 emergency.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L »

Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 19:12
Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:00 Some of the fourth lane northbound was open this morning. Didn't spot where it started, but I'm guessing it was a lane gain at Stafford services. I'll try to have a look later on my way home.

Progress! Finally!!
The extra lane starts at the works unit just north of the services I think.
This morning it was 4 lanes from J14 onwards.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 09:55
Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 19:12
Big L wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 13:00 Some of the fourth lane northbound was open this morning. Didn't spot where it started, but I'm guessing it was a lane gain at Stafford services. I'll try to have a look later on my way home.

Progress! Finally!!
The extra lane starts at the works unit just north of the services I think.
This morning it was 4 lanes from J14 onwards.
Only taken, what, 5 years? We could have built an entirely new motorway in less time... the whole point of smart motorways was meant to be they were quick to install and avoided the legal headaches of new alignments, so why are they all taking forever to complete?

Another reason the goodwill has gone.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by geo449 »

So I’m very much out of the loop: why is it taking so long for the roadworks to complete? Is it really so they can install more refuges?
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 Only taken, what, 5 years? ....
geo449 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:18 So I’m very much out of the loop: why is it taking so long for the roadworks to complete? Is it really so they can install more refuges?
Just over 4 so far I think. If I recall it started March 18 with a 4 year estimate, was miles ahead due to reduced traffic during Covid, then government demanded stopped vehicle detection and more refuges to try to quiet the "ITS ALL UNSAFE" moaners
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Bryn666
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:37
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 Only taken, what, 5 years? ....
geo449 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:18 So I’m very much out of the loop: why is it taking so long for the roadworks to complete? Is it really so they can install more refuges?
Just over 4 so far I think. If I recall it started March 18 with a 4 year estimate, was miles ahead due to reduced traffic during Covid, then government demanded stopped vehicle detection and more refuges to try to quiet the "ITS ALL UNSAFE" moaners
4 years still seems an absurd amount of time for what really constituted barrier replacement and installation of new comms. Sure it's about 20 miles of work but seriously?

For comparison; the M60 widening between J5-8 took 4 years and that was a complete rebuild with new structures and earthworks along the entire length. Incidentally, the single bridge replacement at M56 J11 is scheduled to take about 18 months. To replace one bridge. What is going on?
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by A303Chris »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 13:04
Big L wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:37
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 Only taken, what, 5 years? ....
geo449 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:18 So I’m very much out of the loop: why is it taking so long for the roadworks to complete? Is it really so they can install more refuges?
Just over 4 so far I think. If I recall it started March 18 with a 4 year estimate, was miles ahead due to reduced traffic during Covid, then government demanded stopped vehicle detection and more refuges to try to quiet the "ITS ALL UNSAFE" moaners
4 years still seems an absurd amount of time for what really constituted barrier replacement and installation of new comms. Sure it's about 20 miles of work but seriously?

For comparison; the M60 widening between J5-8 took 4 years and that was a complete rebuild with new structures and earthworks along the entire length. Incidentally, the single bridge replacement at M56 J11 is scheduled to take about 18 months. To replace one bridge. What is going on?
M4 J12 to J8/9 took two years, but was delayed a year running three lanes, with 60 mph while they installed extra laybys and vehicle detection.

J8/9 to J3 taken ages even though all the bridges were knocked down and replaced during Covid in 2020.

It's a joke that a 8 miles of HGDC on the A30 in Cornwall takes less time than a smart motorway conversion
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 13:04
Big L wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:37
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 Only taken, what, 5 years? ....
geo449 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:18 So I’m very much out of the loop: why is it taking so long for the roadworks to complete? Is it really so they can install more refuges?
Just over 4 so far I think. If I recall it started March 18 with a 4 year estimate, was miles ahead due to reduced traffic during Covid, then government demanded stopped vehicle detection and more refuges to try to quiet the "ITS ALL UNSAFE" moaners
4 years still seems an absurd amount of time for what really constituted barrier replacement and installation of new comms. Sure it's about 20 miles of work but seriously?
....
The three rail bridges needed substantial work if I remember correctly, but only because of decades of no maintenance.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by ais523 »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 09:48And if you were in serious difficulty it's not illegal to hit 999 on your mobile and tell them you are blocking a live traffic lane. This little detail is never really made obvious to the public - if you can't make it to a place of safety you have a valid 999 emergency.
Something along the lines of "If you are trapped in a live lane on a motorway, call 999" is actually the recorded message that National Highways play on loop when you telephone them and are waiting for an operator to take the call. So that's one attempt to make it obvious to the public.

There are a lot of borderline cases, though (e.g. I once saw a vehicle which had broken down in a part of the motorway without a "real" hard shoulder, but it had managed to pull far enough onto the verge that although it was slightly protruding into lane 1, there was room to just drive round it using the remaining width of lane 1). I decided that that probably wasn't a 999 emergency, but still merited reporting.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by jusme »

4 lanes all the way northbound today (apart from a phantom lane closure between 13 and 14 for a supposed stranded vehicle - the new SVD seeing ghosts?). New signs (almost) all lit up. Still 60 both ways. Wonder when someone will be brave enough to sign it off for full-speed running...
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