M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

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gepree68
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M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by gepree68 »

1977 M20 J5-J13.png
(Click map to show larger picture)

Here's a 1977 map showing M20 from today's J1 to J9.

But on this map these M20 junction numbers are shown as J5 to J13.

1. Did these old junction numbers (J5 to J13) actually appear on signs back then?

2. When did they change the junction numbers to start at J1 (instead of J5)?

3. Where were J4, J3, J2 and J1 supposed to be?

4. Was M20 intended to go all the way to today's A102 / A12 (what would probably have been M14)?
2018-04-05 M2 M11 M14 M15 M16 M20.png
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Chris5156 »

gepree68 wrote:1. Did these old junction numbers (J5 to J13) actually appear on signs back then?
I don't know but I seriously doubt it. They've been found on a couple of maps but no more than a couple - which suggests it was a plan that was changed before being implemented on the ground.
3. Where were J4, J3, J2 and J1 supposed to be?

4. Was M20 intended to go all the way to today's A102 / A12 (what would probably have been M14)?
That's kind of the same question and again the answer is not very certain. (The idea that the eastern side of Ringway 1 would have been called M14 is also pure speculation - the only known number for the East Cross Route is A102(M).)

What's known for sure is that the south-eastern corner of Ringway 1 at Kidbrooke would have been a four-way junction between the East Cross Route, the South Cross Route, the A2(M) Dover Radial and the A20(M). That latter road would have run alongside the existing A20 roughly as far Sidcup. Beyond that is a bit of a blank. However, it is perfectly clear that A2(M) and A20(M) were Greater London Council road schemes to improve the sections of A2 and A20 they operated; beyond the former LCC boundary those roads became trunk roads and the improvement plans belonged to the MOT who often planned something quite different.

My guess is that the junction numbers were in anticipation of the M20 travelling far enough into London to meet the A20(M) and form a continuous motorway route. But how you would then allocate four junction numbers in towards London I don't know because there appears to be a need for more than four junctions.

Outbound from Ringway 1, we know the A20(M) would have had interchanges at:
Ringway 1/Kidbrooke Interchange - assume no junction number as this is the terminus
A205 South Circular Road - assume J1
Ringway 2/Mottingham Interchange - assume J2
B263 Green Lane - assume J3

That leaves just J4, but there is more than one junction left. I would speculate J4 might have been intended for a theoretical single interchange serving both A222 and A224 at Crittal's Corner, but there's no evidence for that.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by KeithW »

The road has been renamed since the first parts opened let alone renumbered. But the numbering on that map doesn't sit right with my memory and I was commuting from North Eastern England to Kent every 2 weeks or so between 1979 and 1984.

Back in 1960 the M25 where the M20 now starts was if anything thought of as Ringway 4 aka South Orbital road and never seems to have been formally planned so junction 1 could not have been fixed until detailed plans for the M25 developed.

The current M20 route started out as the Maidstone bypass (a pre war scheme) which opened in 2 stages as the A20(M)
Junctions 5 to 7 opened in 1960
Junctions 7 to 8 opened in 1961

The later sections were tacked on over a number of years
Junctions 3 to 5 in 1971
Junctions 1 to 2 in 1977 (to meet the new M25)
As I recall the completion of the Ashford bypass was in the early stages of construction in 1984 and the Leeds Castle to Ashford section didnt open until 1991. I have (not very fond) memories of the traffic along the A20 in the Lenham/Harrietsham area.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Chris5156 »

KeithW wrote:Back in 1960 the M25 where the M20 now starts was if anything thought of as Ringway 4 aka South Orbital road and never seems to have been formally planned so junction 1 could not have been fixed until detailed plans for the M25 developed.
In 1960 the South Orbital Road was six years away from being designated a motorway and did not travel this far north - the M25 between Staines and Sevenoaks and the M26 are the South Orbital Road.

What is now M20 J1 would have been intended as the M20's interchange with the "D" Ring Road via the Dartford Tunnel and, later, Ringway 3. The M25 between Dartford and Swanley didn't open until 1977, the same year as the M20 between junctions 1 and 2, by which time the southern section of Ringway 3 had been abandoned and new plans were being developed to connect the Dartford Tunnel to the South Orbital Road. But even before that had happened, M20 junction 1 would have existed in its present location to connect to the route that is now M25 - the only things that changed were the number of the intersecting motorway and its trajectory to the south.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Ritchie333 »

It's hard to make it out but the map doesn't show the Ashford Ring Road (opened in 1973) and still shows the B2073 Bank Street as live (it was downgraded at the same time).
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by gepree68 »

Around 1977, 1978 or 1979 I remember travelling along M20 from J8 (near Leeds Castle), then J7, J6, J5, J4.

I don't think M20 J3 (today's M20/M26 junction) existed back then. I think M20 just ended at what is today called M26 J2A.

We then went North West on A20 up to just past Stansted Lane, where we turned right and started the next section of M20 from a temporary M20/A20 junction. The location of the junction can be seen on the map I posted at the top of this thread.
Chris5156 wrote:What is now M20 J1 would have been intended as the M20's interchange with the "D" Ring Road via the Dartford Tunnel and, later, Ringway 3. The M25 between Dartford and Swanley didn't open until 1977, the same year as the M20 between junctions 1 and 2, by which time the southern section of Ringway 3 had been abandoned and new plans were being developed to connect the Dartford Tunnel to the South Orbital Road. But even before that had happened, M20 junction 1 would have existed in its present location to connect to the route that is now M25 - the only things that changed were the number of the intersecting motorway and its trajectory to the south.
When M25 J3 to J2 first opened, was it called M25 or something else like M16?
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Truvelo »

There is a history of leaving an incorrect number of junctions for future sections of motorways. M8 and M80 spring to mind where A suffixes have been added to keep the junction numbering correct. I might even go as far to say M20 J5 was numbered purely as an educated guess as to how many junctions may be built inside Ringway 3 as none of the maps I have show the right amount of intermediate junctions between Kidbrooke and Swanley. This is probably the best map I have. Ignore the junction immediately west of J5 as this was closed when J5 was built. I count 5 intermediate junctions between Kidbrooke and Ringway 3. The junction with the A205 between Kidbrooke and Mottingham is shown as "subject to review" on some plans so that could explain its omission from this map but even that doesn't help. If the junctions were to start at Mottingham with the M20/R2 junction as 0 then the numbers do add up but that leaves the section between Kidbrooke and Mottingham which we know was allocated A20(M).
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by wrinkly »

gepree68 wrote: When M25 J3 to J2 first opened, was it called M25 or something else like M16?
It was M25, though if I remember correctly the route that became M26 was at one stage plannned to be M25.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Berk »

Are any of those junction numbers still correct??
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote:
KeithW wrote:Back in 1960 the M25 where the M20 now starts was if anything thought of as Ringway 4 aka South Orbital road and never seems to have been formally planned so junction 1 could not have been fixed until detailed plans for the M25 developed.
In 1960 the South Orbital Road was six years away from being designated a motorway and did not travel this far north - the M25 between Staines and Sevenoaks and the M26 are the South Orbital Road.

What is now M20 J1 would have been intended as the M20's interchange with the "D" Ring Road via the Dartford Tunnel and, later, Ringway 3. The M25 between Dartford and Swanley didn't open until 1977, the same year as the M20 between junctions 1 and 2, by which time the southern section of Ringway 3 had been abandoned and new plans were being developed to connect the Dartford Tunnel to the South Orbital Road. But even before that had happened, M20 junction 1 would have existed in its present location to connect to the route that is now M25 - the only things that changed were the number of the intersecting motorway and its trajectory to the south.
The point I was trying to make was that in 1960 there probably was no fixed location for a Junction 1. All that would have been known is that it would connect to some form of orbital road south of the Thames.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by ScottB5411 »

wrinkly wrote:
gepree68 wrote: When M25 J3 to J2 first opened, was it called M25 or something else like M16?
It was M25, though if I remember correctly the route that became M26 was at one stage plannned to be M25.
The OP map actually shows the M26 as the M25 ;-)
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Scratchwood »

ScottB5411 wrote:
wrinkly wrote:
gepree68 wrote: When M25 J3 to J2 first opened, was it called M25 or something else like M16?
It was M25, though if I remember correctly the route that became M26 was at one stage plannned to be M25.
The OP map actually shows the M26 as the M25 ;-)
I assume that by the time J3 to J2 was opened, the separate Ringway 3 and 4 plans had already been scrapped as it was never opened as the M16 or as part of the A282. I'm guessing the same applies to the M26 which would have opened with its current number.

Looking at the A20 within London, were there ever any plans to build the Swanley bypass as a Motorway or upgrade it later? The road then continues on the later Ruxley bypass and upgraded Sidcup bypass, I wonder this these were from the A20(M) plans or could the Ruxley and Swanley bypasses have been part of the M20?
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by gepree68 »

ScottB5411 wrote:The OP map actually shows the M26 as the M25 ;-)
Very true! The original M25 would have continued east of today's J5 along what is now M26, eventually joining onto M20 at today's M20 J3.

Another interesting map I just found shows (from right to left) M20 J11, J10, J9 and J8 (today's M20 J7, J6, J5 and J4).
2018-04-06 M20 1977 J7-J11.png
But the next junction shown is called M20 J7, and strangely it is at today's M26 J2A.

When they originally built the above section of M20, were they still unsure where the M25 (today's M26) would connect?
Is it possible that M20 would have carried on west of the J7 shown, and then would have turned north onto the green dotted line on this map?
2018-04-06 M20 M26.png
Also, while we are on the subject of M20, where is Richard Stilgoe talking about here? M20 J1 or M20 J3?
2018-04-06 Richard Stilgoe - Television.png
(from http://richardstilgoe.com/television.html)
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Bryn666 »

The Swanley end. The bridge famously wasn't connected to the M25 until it was extended south.

Also for fun the West Kingsdown lights. Note the carriageways massively narrowing down to what I'd say was no wider than D2.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Chris5156 »

Scratchwood wrote:I assume that by the time J3 to J2 was opened, the separate Ringway 3 and 4 plans had already been scrapped as it was never opened as the M16 or as part of the A282. I'm guessing the same applies to the M26 which would have opened with its current number.
Yes, M25 J2-3 and M20 J1-2 were opened in 1977, four years after Ringway 3 was scrapped. M16 was never allocated on the ground and was never proposed for use south of the Thames.
Looking at the A20 within London, were there ever any plans to build the Swanley bypass as a Motorway or upgrade it later? The road then continues on the later Ruxley bypass and upgraded Sidcup bypass, I wonder this these were from the A20(M) plans or could the Ruxley and Swanley bypasses have been part of the M20?
The Ruxley Bypass and Sidcup Bypass were trunk road schemes so would never have been A20(M) - the A20(M) was a GLC scheme for sections of road further in. There may have been an intention to upgrade them to M20 but I've no evidence for it.
geepree68 wrote:When they originally built the above section of M20, were they still unsure where the M25 (today's M26) would connect?
Is it possible that M20 would have carried on west of the J7 shown, and then would have turned north onto the green dotted line on this map?
That's exactly why the M20 ended at what is now M26 J2a - it was with the intention that it would continue west from there before turning north. It was then rerouted to take its present alignment which caused it to branch off at what is now M20 J3. The M26 between the M20 and J2a is built on a full D3M formation which was provided because it was going to be part of the M20.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by A303Chris »

Chris5156 wrote: That's exactly why the M20 ended at what is now M26 J2a - it was with the intention that it would continue west from there before turning north. It was then rerouted to take its present alignment which caused it to branch off at what is now M20 J2. The M26 between the M20 and J2a is built on a full D3M formation which was provided because it was going to be part of the M20.
I presume this was done so the M20 went up the North Downs escarpment at a gentler incline / angle as its alignment does not scar the landscape. If it did what was originally planned , the escarpment is very steep here and the size of the cutting would have had severe implications for the landscape.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Brenley Corner »

Bryn666 wrote:The Swanley end. The bridge famously wasn't connected to the M25 until it was extended south.

Also for fun the West Kingsdown lights. Note the carriageways massively narrowing down to what I'd say was no wider than D2.
A fascinating discussion. I was growing up in this area as the M20 J1 to J2, and M25 J2 to J3 were built and opened.

The bridge to nowhere built as future-proofing at Swanley with M25 J2/J3 was actually built with provision for D2 plus a hard shoulder so when the M25 finally came 9 years later as a D3 motorway without a lane drop at Swanley - the bridge had to be marked as D3 with a missing hard shoulder. It is interesting to note that the M20 through this junction is a D2H - plus the bridge built over the A2 at J2 is also a D2 configuration but the layout has been modified many times since 1977.

There were problems with the roundabout bridges over the M20 almost as soon as they opened. They were found to be subsiding and had to be closed for a period of time for repairs. The diversion was set up down the M20 slip road across the M20 and back up the other slip road.
Around the same time I had a family member who lived near Swanley and got confused by the new roundabout not long after it opened in 1977 and found herself going down the M20 to West Kingsdown in error so at the traffic lights she did u-turn from Lane 1 to Lane 1 back again and wondered why everyone hooted at her!!

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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by M5Lenzar »

So would we have seen A20(M) turn into M20? Kind of like M74->A74(M)
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by Chris5156 »

M5Lenzar wrote:So would we have seen A20(M) turn into M20? Kind of like M74->A74(M)
I think all road numbers should be treated as provisional until built - if the M20 had run end-on into the A20(M) it may very well have just been all M20.
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Re: M20 J1 (junction with M25) used to be J5. Why?

Post by gepree68 »

While we are talking about M26, could someone please explain why M26's only numbered junction is called J2A?

I think M25 J5 (the M25/M26 junction) is sometimes also called M26 J1 in some internal documentation.

And I know there were plans for another junction on M26, presumably to be called M26 J2.

So why did they not call the M26/A20 junction J3?

Is the M26 J2A number based on M20 J2? If so, it would make more sense to call it J3A as it actually connects to M20 J3, not M20 J2!
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