IRL: Are L-roads classified??

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Berk
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IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Berk »

A thought has just come to me. On my drives in Ireland, I’ve often come across L-roads, which are signed off of the adjacent N- or R- road. But although they’re usually drawn on maps, they’re not usually numbered.

Are they basically equivalent to C-roads in England (classified, yet ‘unclassified’)??
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Up to the late 1970's, the roads were numbered using T for Trunk roads and L for Link roads. This system was replaced in the late 1970's by the current N (National), R (Regional) and L (Local) system, and more recently M (Motorway). The current L roads have four or five digit numbers to distinguish them from the former L (Link) roads, which had up to three digit numbers, and they are generally not shown as numbered on road maps. These local roads are generally of a similar standard to unclassified roads here.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... _(Ireland)

From the SABRE Wiki: T and L roads %28Ireland%29 :

irst- and second-class roads in the Republic of Ireland (and, before that, the Irish Free State) were originally classified as respectively Trunk (T) and Link (L) roads.

Road numbers pre-dated the partition of Ireland with the formation of the Road Committee by Ministry of Transport Act 1919. A 1926 act, post-partition, refers to "The route letter and number of a road", suggesting that roads had begun to be classified but had not

... Read More
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Raykay »

It may be a local authority matter. Where I am the local roads are not signed (I don't know if they are numbered), a few miles (or should it be kilometres!) away in the same county, they are numbered and signed.
Last edited by Raykay on Mon Sep 24, 2018 09:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

Lots of the new "L" roads are now numbered and signed from authorities such as Louth in the East to Cork in the West... Destinations and street names though often aren't!

Edit - I don't believe the same classification rules apply in Ireland as in the UK of course...
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by bothar »

I think L roads include both C class roads and U class roads in the NI context.
Numbers below 5000 are C class roads, narrow S2, not hugely different from the less busy R routes.
Those above 5000 are less important S1.5 type roads, not ideal for HGVs for instance.
Those with 5 digits are dead end S1 links from these, often former private lanes "adopted" from the 1960s.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by nowster »

bothar wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 21:49 Those with 5 digits are dead end S1 links from these, often former private lanes "adopted" from the 1960s.
Some 5 digit L roads have suffix numbers too, something like L98765-4. I think I saw these on the Dingle peninsula.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by bothar »

nowster wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 21:58
bothar wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 21:49 Those with 5 digits are dead end S1 links from these, often former private lanes "adopted" from the 1960s.
Some 5 digit L roads have suffix numbers too, something like L98765-4. I think I saw these on the Dingle peninsula.
Good point, these might be spurs off a dead end road.
These don't go anywhere at all at all.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

Here's a long name plate in County Cork - a minor track going off the R572 : Image

I think the allocation is different in different areas; certainly there are some in Louth that are 3xxxx-xx which are also barely more than driveways serving a couple of properities.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by AndyB »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 20:33 Up to the late 1970's, the roads were numbered using T for Trunk roads and L for Link roads. This system was replaced in the late 1970's by the current N (National), R (Regional) and L (Local) system, and more recently M (Motorway). The current L roads have four or five digit numbers to distinguish them from the former L (Link) roads, which had up to three digit numbers, and they are generally not shown as numbered on road maps. These local roads are generally of a similar standard to unclassified roads here.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... _(Ireland)
Wee correction:
Up to the late 1970's, the roads were numbered using T for Trunk roads and L for Link roads. This system was replaced in the late 1970's by the current N (National) (including M (Motorway)) and R (Regional) system, which has been supplemented in the last few years by L (Local).

I think that rather than a classification as such, it's an identification for administrative purposes. Only N and R roads are classified and identified in statute law. I suspect urban streets might have L numbers, but they aren't posted, probably because there are street names instead to make identification obvious.

From the SABRE Wiki: T and L roads %28Ireland%29 :

irst- and second-class roads in the Republic of Ireland (and, before that, the Irish Free State) were originally classified as respectively Trunk (T) and Link (L) roads.

Road numbers pre-dated the partition of Ireland with the formation of the Road Committee by Ministry of Transport Act 1919. A 1926 act, post-partition, refers to "The route letter and number of a road", suggesting that roads had begun to be classified but had not

... Read More
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

2013 guidelines for the scheduling and classification of roads:
http://www.rmo.ie/uploads/8/2/1/0/82106 ... reland.pdf
Local roads are classified by the Road Authority and are divided into 3 categories with separate reserved blocks of numbers.
Up to five digits are required to cater for numbering local roads.
The numbering systems are not widely known to the public. However this may change now that the Local Authorities have started
erecting signs indicating local road numbers. The identifiers LP, LS and LT are used to identify the road category, with additional benefit being gained by building some information into the numeric part of the identifier as follows:

a) LP –Local Primary –LXXXX (L1000 –L4999)
The first digit is in the range 1-4 (optional). This allows one to cater for 3999 county primary roads and possibly assign a range of numbers to each engineers area i.e. 1000-1999 = Eng Area 1.

b) LS -Local Secondary LXXXX (L5000 –L9999)
Local Secondary roads are numbered in a similar manner to local primary roads except that the first digit is in the range 5-8. This allows one to cater for 3999 local secondary roads and assign a range of numbers to each engineering area above i.e. 5000 – 5999 = Eng. Area 1.
In order to allow flexibility on local secondary road numbering,the first digit may be 9 thus allowing road numbers from 9000 to 9999 to be assigned.

c)LT –Local Tertiary LXXXXY (L10000 –L99999)
Local tertiary roads are numbered such that their first four digits represent the number of the most important primary or secondary it intersects.
The last digit, indicated by “Y” will be in the range 1-9.
This allows one to cater for 9 roads leaving any primary or secondary road

If the local tertiary road commences at a National or Regional road, then the nearest local road (highest category takes precedence) should be used to provide the first four digits of the tertiary road number.

It is recommended that the numbering of a local tertiary road be associated with a local primary or local secondary road. The recommended method for implementing this is to define the number of the tertiary road as being that of the closest primary or secondary plus an additional digit in the range 1 –9. Hence one is limited to a maximum of 9 tertiary roads associated with a primary or a secondary road. In some instances Engineers have been finding restrictions imposed by the recommendations difficult to implement. In particular the restriction of 9 tertiary roads associated with a primary or a secondary road has, in some instances, posed problems. In order to accommodate some flexibility in the numbering of local tertiary roads, the Road Network System will allow local tertiary roads be defined with a number greater than 90000.

The system will not check that such roads have any association with a local primary or secondary road. In the interest of consistency use of such numbers should be avoided. If forced to have to use such numbers, Engineers would be advised to try and structure the numbers to that there is an implied relationship that they, and the relevant staff in their authority, are aware of.

In some instances the segment identifier has been used to define a number of tertiary roads as different segments of the same road even where they may be displaced from each other. The Road Network System does not check that one segment starts at the node where the preceding one ended. Hence it will allow the recording of data using this approach.

It is obvious that for any road user their perception of the name or classification of a route is how that route is signed. It is therefore essential that the task of classification and signing are closely linked to prevent disparities between the legal documents describing national and regional routes and what a sign indicates to the road user.

It should be noted that the classification and scheduling of a road can directly affect the speed limits on that road and that any changes will need to take account of the current provisions and needs with regard to speed limits. With changes to road classification or numbering road authorities need to ensure that records are up to date and accurate and that other relevant authorities such as the Gardai are informed

For completeness and simplicity any update to the schedule should be comprehensive and revoke previous Orders thus ensuring that the there is only one consolidated and valid road schedule at any time. It is advisable to ensure that any schedule and numbering system provides for future or proposed roads.

As stated previously the numbering of local roads is the responsibility of individual road authorities. Where a road authority is not able to conform tot his guidance, it should consult with the Department.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

So come on, own up... who here thought up that classification system?! If it isn't an existing member, we should find out who they are and offer memberships I think. Anyone that can design such an overly complex system of numbering and somehow manage to get local authorities to erect roadsigns for each of them, despite the system serving very little in the way of navigational usefulness deserves to be a member here, if they're not already!
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Vierwielen »

c2R wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 23:02 Here's a long name plate in County Cork - a minor track going off the R572 : Image

I think the allocation is different in different areas; certainly there are some in Louth that are 3xxxx-xx which are also barely more than driveways serving a couple of properities.
Looks more like a numberplate than a road number. :D
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Euan »

Would it be a good idea to get local primary roads onto the wiki just like we have done for some of the C roads that we know about? As far as I can tell, LP roads are roughly equivalent to C roads while LS and LT roads are roughly equivalent to U roads and so LP roads would probably merit having their own articles on the wiki. The OpenStreetMap wiki has obtained road lists from some of the county councils and they can be seen here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ire ... ocal_roads

From this it appears that there is information available for the counties of Carlow, Cork, Kildare, Laois, Louth, Monaghan and Wexford. County Cork does not include the city as it is a separate city council. It is also worth noting that there is information available for South Dublin, which is within County Dublin. The other Dublin authorities have not supplied information, so whether the L roads here reflect on the historic county I do not know. As for the other counties, more searching will be needed for their L roads. Having said that there are still a lot of C roads in England still to be found and thus far none of the C roads in Wales have been added to the wiki. A full NI list of C roads has already been located and it would just be a matter of patience to add these. Scotland was completed earlier this year.

Adding the L (primary) roads to the wiki would be something to think about, especially as we've added lots of C roads up until now.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

Euan wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 05:51 Would it be a good idea to get local primary roads onto the wiki just like we have done for some of the C roads that we know about?
In my view, there's no reason why not; it's just a matter of priority, time, and resource. Currently, in wiki terms we're got several major editors who are working on a variety of different things in an attempt to improve the wiki content in various areas - so it'd be either about attracting new volunteers to add new content or an existing editor switching priority. I'm currently working on a technical redesign of some of the infobox areas following the removal of google maps as my top priority. Most of the changes I'm putting in are unlikely to be noticed by a casual viewer but will simplify the administration no end.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Euan »

c2R wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 07:44
Euan wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 05:51 Would it be a good idea to get local primary roads onto the wiki just like we have done for some of the C roads that we know about?
In my view, there's no reason why not; it's just a matter of priority, time, and resource. Currently, in wiki terms we're got several major editors who are working on a variety of different things in an attempt to improve the wiki content in various areas - so it'd be either about attracting new volunteers to add new content or an existing editor switching priority. I'm currently working on a technical redesign of some of the infobox areas following the removal of google maps as my top priority. Most of the changes I'm putting in are unlikely to be noticed by a casual viewer but will simplify the administration no end.
I'd be more than happy to have a go at some of them myself if I find enough spare time. I think it's just a case of setting up navboxes and route traces.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Berk »

Just as a point of order, why was Google Maps withdrawn??
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by nowster »

Berk wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:46 Just as a point of order, why was Google Maps withdrawn??
Simplified answer: they are charging for the API now.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by dereer »

A slight problem for articles: L roads are divided into 2-3 km segments, resulting in a lot of numbers on the same route.
So, let's say there are two villages: Village A and Village B.
There is a road connecting the two villages.
In Village A, it starts as the L1231.
2 km later, it reaches a crossroads with the L12311 and L12321.
After the crossroads, it becomes the L1232
2 km later, it reaches a fork between the L8765 (to Village C) and the L1233 (Village B)
3 km, the L1233 reaches a junction with the main road past village B.
After the junction, it becomes the L1234 into the village and through it.
And to top it all off, it crosses the county border and becomes the L4321.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by Euan »

dereer wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 15:20 A slight problem for articles: L roads are divided into 2-3 km segments, resulting in a lot of numbers on the same route.
So, let's say there are two villages: Village A and Village B.
There is a road connecting the two villages.
In Village A, it starts as the L1231.
2 km later, it reaches a crossroads with the L12311 and L12321.
After the crossroads, it becomes the L1232
2 km later, it reaches a fork between the L8765 (to Village C) and the L1233 (Village B)
3 km, the L1233 reaches a junction with the main road past village B.
After the junction, it becomes the L1234 into the village and through it.
And to top it all off, it crosses the county border and becomes the L4321.
At this stage I reckon it would only be LP routes (<L5000 in each county) that would be added to the wiki either with their own articles or in a list for each county. Alternatively we could try and identify chains of numbers which combine to form a single sensible route and give them their own articles, such as "L1231/L1232/L1233/L1234 ([County Name])" in your example. Roads crossing county borders would not be much of a problem, there are plenty of English and Scottish C roads already on the wiki which change number at certain local authority boundaries (often based on older and larger authorities which have since been replaced by smaller ones). I'm sure the wiki admin team will have an idea of how the roads should be presented, but first it would definitely be useful to study the roads in depth so that we know exactly what kind of numbering "structure" is being dealt with.
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Re: IRL: Are L-roads classified??

Post by c2R »

We could structure it either way - better for automation is to have each number with its own page, but that is less helpful in terms of article readability, although not impossible.

I certainly would concentrate on local primary - given that some of the lowest level are little more than tracks or driveways adding them all to the wiki and maintaining them would be probably never ending task....
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