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Glenn A wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 18:26
I would much rather any money was spent turning the A1 into D3M all the way from London to Barton. In parts this road is an outdated joke, with some sections still having houses next to the carriageway, at grade junctions and roundabouts. Driving on the D3M section in North Yorkshire was both faster and far less stressful than the sixties D2.
Agreed. This should have been done decades ago.
Am I right in saying that this was actually proposed and if so, how close did it get to actually happening?
Rillington wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 14:33
Am I right in saying that this was actually proposed and if so, how close did it get to actually happening?
Not to my knowledge, there was a 2016 study that looked gain at the option of upgrading the A1 between J10 (Baldock) and J15 (Sawtry) , this had originally been proposed to be upgraded in 1993 but once again the decision was not to proceed. As far as I know between Peterborough and Blyth the only thing done was the removal of the roundabouts and I have seen no formal proposals to do anything else apart from the safety changes made at Elkesley and the Black Cat Scheme. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf
There is currently the Doncaster Bypass and Redhouse to Darrington scheme but the reality is south of Blyth traffic levels don't even come close to justifying an upgrade to D3(M)
The biggest towns you hit between Doncaster and Peterborough are Newark (320,000), Grantham (35,000) and Stamford (120,000)
There are simply routes where the need is higher, the A34 Oxford bypass for example.
Rillington wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 14:33
Am I right in saying that this was actually proposed and if so, how close did it get to actually happening?
Not to my knowledge, there was a 2016 study that looked gain at the option of upgrading the A1 between J10 (Baldock) and J15 (Sawtry) , this had originally been proposed to be upgraded in 1993 but once again the decision was not to proceed. As far as I know between Peterborough and Blyth the only thing done was the removal of the roundabouts and I have seen no formal proposals to do anything else apart from the safety changes made at Elkesley and the Black Cat Scheme. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf
There is currently the Doncaster Bypass and Redhouse to Darrington scheme but the reality is south of Blyth traffic levels don't even come close to justifying an upgrade to D3(M)
The biggest towns you hit between Doncaster and Peterborough are Newark (320,000), Grantham (35,000) and Stamford (120,000)
There are simply routes where the need is higher, the A34 Oxford bypass for example.
You sure about the size of Newark?
Peterborough to Blyth is a steady drive. Not spectacularly quick, not always free flowing, but at the times I usually travel, not a problem. Most of the issues I've experienced have been around the A46 junction where traffic queuing to get off the A1 can block back onto the main line. Also, the 50 zone west of Markham Moor can be slow because of people who decide to drive at an indicated 47 mph, whereas they are actually doing closer to 42mph when measured by GPS.
Baldock to Buckden has a variety of different speed limits - 50s, 60s and 70s and sometimes it is easy to forget which limit applies where. The roundabouts cause congestion and the Black Cat is woefully inadequate and needs fixing. I'm not a fan of bypassing everything at any cost, but this is a section of road that does need an upgrade. An off-line D2M would make a huge difference, particularly if it is future proofed for either adding a third lane or converting to smart motorway when necessary. The centre of Sandy and other settlements could then be returned to a single carriageway road, with good walking and cycling provision, and yes, room for sympathetic development that doesn't turn its back on the historic Great North Road.
Simon
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Regarding the A1 between Baldock and Alconbury. Someone here (Chris?) had some scans of a delightful DoT booklet from 1993 showing the route of the A1(M) upgrade. The topography is not challenging neither is the proximity to settlements.
The existing road between Biggleswade and Buckden is terrible, especially between Sandy and Tempsford/Black Cat. North of Black Cat is, Fwiw, a fairly good stretch of D2 until Buckden!
Is this upgrade/study definitely off the agenda now? I think I know the answer…. I don’t think the extant proposals for Black Cat are compatible with the D3M offline upgrade.
The full motorway upgrade was ruled out. There was still some talk about more local improvements a few years ago, maybe including offline sections or grade separation, but it's gone quiet. There's nothing in RIS2 or the RIS3 pipeline.
As well as Black Cat itself the current scheme provides fairly significant improvements to the A1 either side, removing the offside marina access and rationalising the accesses in the villages to the north. That's something I guess but confirms this section won't be bypassed anytime soon.
M4Simon wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 18:15
You sure about the size of Newark?
Peterborough to Blyth is a steady drive. Not spectacularly quick, not always free flowing, but at the times I usually travel, not a problem. Most of the issues I've experienced have been around the A46 junction where traffic queuing to get off the A1 can block back onto the main line. Also, the 50 zone west of Markham Moor can be slow because of people who decide to drive at an indicated 47 mph, whereas they are actually doing closer to 42mph when measured by GPS.
Baldock to Buckden has a variety of different speed limits - 50s, 60s and 70s and sometimes it is easy to forget which limit applies where. The roundabouts cause congestion and the Black Cat is woefully inadequate and needs fixing. I'm not a fan of bypassing everything at any cost, but this is a section of road that does need an upgrade. An off-line D2M would make a huge difference, particularly if it is future proofed for either adding a third lane or converting to smart motorway when necessary. The centre of Sandy and other settlements could then be returned to a single carriageway road, with good walking and cycling provision, and yes, room for sympathetic development that doesn't turn its back on the historic Great North Road.
Simon
My mistake that was Newark USA , Newark on Trent is 40,000
I cannot give more than a SWAG (Scientific wild a**ed guess) how often I have driven up the A1 since 1980 but its probably nearer 2000 than 1000. Approaching Newark I am always in the outside lane expecting queuing traffic at the junction, as I recall the only sections with a 50 limit were Elkesley and Sandy. I would love to see a D3 road as I already mentioned but given the traffic levels I have no expectation of it happening in the near future. There have been at least 2 studies intended to bypass Sandy (in 1993 and 2016), neither were proceeded with.
The only roundabouts north of Baldock and south of Newcastle are the Black Cat, which is on track for replacement and Buckden. The latter is rarely more than a couple of minutes delay.
Rillington wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 14:33
Am I right in saying that this was actually proposed and if so, how close did it get to actually happening?
Not to my knowledge, there was a 2016 study that looked gain at the option of upgrading the A1 between J10 (Baldock) and J15 (Sawtry) , this had originally been proposed to be upgraded in 1993 but once again the decision was not to proceed. As far as I know between Peterborough and Blyth the only thing done was the removal of the roundabouts and I have seen no formal proposals to do anything else apart from the safety changes made at Elkesley and the Black Cat Scheme. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf
There is currently the Doncaster Bypass and Redhouse to Darrington scheme but the reality is south of Blyth traffic levels don't even come close to justifying an upgrade to D3(M)
The biggest towns you hit between Doncaster and Peterborough are Newark (320,000), Grantham (35,000) and Stamford (120,000)
There are simply routes where the need is higher, the A34 Oxford bypass for example.
You sure about the size of Newark?
Newark appears to be about 28,000 and Stamford about 20,000. Both would be outside the top 13 settlements in Herts.
A320Driver wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 19:06
Regarding the A1 between Baldock and Alconbury. Someone here (Chris?) had some scans of a delightful DoT booklet from 1993 showing the route of the A1(M) upgrade. The topography is not challenging neither is the proximity to settlements.
The existing road between Biggleswade and Buckden is terrible, especially between Sandy and Tempsford/Black Cat. North of Black Cat is, Fwiw, a fairly good stretch of D2 until Buckden!
Is this upgrade/study definitely off the agenda now? I think I know the answer…. I don’t think the extant proposals for Black Cat are compatible with the D3M offline upgrade.
I have those documents from 1993, it was to be D3(M), 30 years on you can be sure its off the agenda but to be sure I asked and got the reply that there were no current plans for an upgrade.
The stretch between Tempsford and Buckden is poor in my opinion as you have the Black Cat, the boatyard and a stretch of dodgy D2 with a 60 mph limit due to its poor accident record and at least 2 flat junctions
M4Simon wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 18:15
You sure about the size of Newark?
Peterborough to Blyth is a steady drive. Not spectacularly quick, not always free flowing, but at the times I usually travel, not a problem. Most of the issues I've experienced have been around the A46 junction where traffic queuing to get off the A1 can block back onto the main line. Also, the 50 zone west of Markham Moor can be slow because of people who decide to drive at an indicated 47 mph, whereas they are actually doing closer to 42mph when measured by GPS.
Baldock to Buckden has a variety of different speed limits - 50s, 60s and 70s and sometimes it is easy to forget which limit applies where. The roundabouts cause congestion and the Black Cat is woefully inadequate and needs fixing. I'm not a fan of bypassing everything at any cost, but this is a section of road that does need an upgrade. An off-line D2M would make a huge difference, particularly if it is future proofed for either adding a third lane or converting to smart motorway when necessary. The centre of Sandy and other settlements could then be returned to a single carriageway road, with good walking and cycling provision, and yes, room for sympathetic development that doesn't turn its back on the historic Great North Road.
Simon
My mistake that was Newark USA , Newark on Trent is 40,000
I wondered whether it should have been 32,000 and an extra 0 had crept in. Wouldn't be the first time I've done that.
I cannot give more than a SWAG (Scientific wild a**ed guess) how often I have driven up the A1 since 1980 but its probably nearer 2000 than 1000. Approaching Newark I am always in the outside lane expecting queuing traffic at the junction, as I recall the only sections with a 50 limit were Elkesley and Sandy. I would love to see a D3 road as I already mentioned but given the traffic levels I have no expectation of it happening in the near future. There have been at least 2 studies intended to bypass Sandy (in 1993 and 2016), neither were proceeded with.
The speed limits are more varied than that. It's 50 from the A14 to just south of Buckden roundabout. Then it is 60mph with average speed cameras to somewhere near Little Paxton. Then back to 70, then I can't remember exactly how it goes, but I think it's 60 around Temposford, 50 in Sandy, back up to 60 towards Black Cat, possibly another bit of 50 before you get to 70.
The only roundabouts north of Baldock and south of Newcastle are the Black Cat, which is on track for replacement and Buckden. The latter is rarely more than a couple of minutes delay.
There are also two at Biggleswade and the one in Sandy!
Simon
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M4Simon wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 18:15
You sure about the size of Newark?
Peterborough to Blyth is a steady drive. Not spectacularly quick, not always free flowing, but at the times I usually travel, not a problem. Most of the issues I've experienced have been around the A46 junction where traffic queuing to get off the A1 can block back onto the main line. Also, the 50 zone west of Markham Moor can be slow because of people who decide to drive at an indicated 47 mph, whereas they are actually doing closer to 42mph when measured by GPS.
Baldock to Buckden has a variety of different speed limits - 50s, 60s and 70s and sometimes it is easy to forget which limit applies where. The roundabouts cause congestion and the Black Cat is woefully inadequate and needs fixing. I'm not a fan of bypassing everything at any cost, but this is a section of road that does need an upgrade. An off-line D2M would make a huge difference, particularly if it is future proofed for either adding a third lane or converting to smart motorway when necessary. The centre of Sandy and other settlements could then be returned to a single carriageway road, with good walking and cycling provision, and yes, room for sympathetic development that doesn't turn its back on the historic Great North Road.
Simon
My mistake that was Newark USA , Newark on Trent is 40,000
I wondered whether it should have been 32,000 and an extra 0 had crept in. Wouldn't be the first time I've done that.
I cannot give more than a SWAG (Scientific wild a**ed guess) how often I have driven up the A1 since 1980 but its probably nearer 2000 than 1000. Approaching Newark I am always in the outside lane expecting queuing traffic at the junction, as I recall the only sections with a 50 limit were Elkesley and Sandy. I would love to see a D3 road as I already mentioned but given the traffic levels I have no expectation of it happening in the near future. There have been at least 2 studies intended to bypass Sandy (in 1993 and 2016), neither were proceeded with.
The speed limits are more varied than that. It's 50 from the A14 to just south of Buckden roundabout. Then it is 60mph with average speed cameras to somewhere near Little Paxton. Then back to 70, then I can't remember exactly how it goes, but I think it's 60 around Temposford, 50 in Sandy, back up to 60 towards Black Cat, possibly another bit of 50 before you get to 70.
The only roundabouts north of Baldock and south of Newcastle are the Black Cat, which is on track for replacement and Buckden. The latter is rarely more than a couple of minutes delay.
There are also two at Biggleswade and the one in Sandy!
Simon
I think it drops back to 50 where the A428 joins to the Black Cat then 60 around Tempsford before a stretch at 70 before Sandy and then 60 to the northern Biggleswade roundabout and then 70 from there.
From the A14 to Black Cat speed limits are as follows (I drove this section southbound on Sunday and I've just checked Google Maps) :
The 70 ends at the B1514 junction north of Buckden.
50 past Buckden to just south of the roundabout.
60 to the Little Paxton turn (B1041).
70 St.Neots bypass.
60 from the A428 to Black Cat.
owen b wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 19:56
From the A14 to Black Cat speed limits are as follows (I drove this section southbound on Sunday and I've just checked Google Maps) :
The 70 ends at the B1514 junction north of Buckden.
50 past Buckden to just south of the roundabout.
60 to the Little Paxton turn (B1041).
70 St.Neots bypass.
60 from the A428 to Black Cat.
owen b wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 19:56
From the A14 to Black Cat speed limits are as follows (I drove this section southbound on Sunday and I've just checked Google Maps) :
The 70 ends at the B1514 junction north of Buckden.
50 past Buckden to just south of the roundabout.
60 to the Little Paxton turn (B1041).
70 St.Neots bypass.
60 from the A428 to Black Cat.
owen b wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 19:56
From the A14 to Black Cat speed limits are as follows (I drove this section southbound on Sunday and I've just checked Google Maps) :
The 70 ends at the B1514 junction north of Buckden.
50 past Buckden to just south of the roundabout.
60 to the Little Paxton turn (B1041).
70 St.Neots bypass.
60 from the A428 to Black Cat.
There's probably nil chance of the Peterborough-Doncaster gap being filled now - and even if there was I doubt it would be a priority given the roundabouts have all been removed.
Safety wise though there is a lot more required to be done. Realigning the worst bits should still be a thing even though it isn't.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Realigning the A1 through Sandy is a topic of particular interest to the residents of my new-ish home town. I'm on the Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group, and we did an initial "3 things you love about Sandy" and "3 things you hate about Sandy", and the A1 was prominent in both categories. The smaller village of Beeston is bisected by the A1 and now that the Days Inn is being used as temporary accommodation, there's often people trying to cross the A1 by foot at Sandy roundabout, which is horrendously dangerous. The northbound right-turn across the A1 allows access to Tesco and the quarry, but is obviously unsuitable for HGVs (and I don't like using it in my Aygo either), which means traffic must travel through the town centre. We're soon to commission a traffic survey, which should provide some useful data.
It would also be a huge boost to the air quality of the town, and allow much nicer and easier access along the River Ivel for recreation purposes.
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Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:00
There's probably nil chance of the Peterborough-Doncaster gap being filled now - and even if there was I doubt it would be a priority given the roundabouts have all been removed.
I think you're probably right.
However the section between Stevenage and Peterborough is more realistic as it would provide a decent road link improvement between London and Peterborough and beyond.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:22
Realigning the A1 through Sandy is a topic of particular interest to the residents of my new-ish home town. I'm on the Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group, and we did an initial "3 things you love about Sandy" and "3 things you hate about Sandy", and the A1 was prominent in both categories. The smaller village of Beeston is bisected by the A1 and now that the Days Inn is being used as temporary accommodation, there's often people trying to cross the A1 by foot at Sandy roundabout, which is horrendously dangerous. The northbound right-turn across the A1 allows access to Tesco and the quarry, but is obviously unsuitable for HGVs (and I don't like using it in my Aygo either), which means traffic must travel through the town centre. We're soon to commission a traffic survey, which should provide some useful data.
It would also be a huge boost to the air quality of the town, and allow much nicer and easier access along the River Ivel for recreation purposes.
I've never understood why a road as important sounding as the A1 is still such a poor standard at Sandy. The quality is probably about what I would imagine the quality of the A74 used to be at Lesmahagow prior to the M74 extension in the mid 1980s.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:22
Realigning the A1 through Sandy is a topic of particular interest to the residents of my new-ish home town. I'm on the Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group, and we did an initial "3 things you love about Sandy" and "3 things you hate about Sandy", and the A1 was prominent in both categories. The smaller village of Beeston is bisected by the A1 and now that the Days Inn is being used as temporary accommodation, there's often people trying to cross the A1 by foot at Sandy roundabout, which is horrendously dangerous. The northbound right-turn across the A1 allows access to Tesco and the quarry, but is obviously unsuitable for HGVs (and I don't like using it in my Aygo either), which means traffic must travel through the town centre. We're soon to commission a traffic survey, which should provide some useful data.
It would also be a huge boost to the air quality of the town, and allow much nicer and easier access along the River Ivel for recreation purposes.
I've never understood why a road as important sounding as the A1 is still such a poor standard at Sandy. The quality is probably about what I would imagine the quality of the A74 used to be at Lesmahagow prior to the M74 extension in the mid 1980s.
Because the A1 is not as important as it sounds at Sandy. Most traffic on the A1 in that area will be starting or finishing their journeys fairly locally. Long distance traffic to / from east London, Kent, Essex will use the A14 / M11. Long distance traffic to / from west London, Heathrow, home counties north west and west of London will use the A421 / M1. Sandy is too far out to generate much London commuter traffic. So traffic on the A1 at Sandy is relatively low. That's not to say that improvements aren't justified.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:22
Realigning the A1 through Sandy is a topic of particular interest to the residents of my new-ish home town. I'm on the Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group, and we did an initial "3 things you love about Sandy" and "3 things you hate about Sandy", and the A1 was prominent in both categories. The smaller village of Beeston is bisected by the A1 and now that the Days Inn is being used as temporary accommodation, there's often people trying to cross the A1 by foot at Sandy roundabout, which is horrendously dangerous. The northbound right-turn across the A1 allows access to Tesco and the quarry, but is obviously unsuitable for HGVs (and I don't like using it in my Aygo either), which means traffic must travel through the town centre. We're soon to commission a traffic survey, which should provide some useful data.
It would also be a huge boost to the air quality of the town, and allow much nicer and easier access along the River Ivel for recreation purposes.
I've never understood why a road as important sounding as the A1 is still such a poor standard at Sandy. The quality is probably about what I would imagine the quality of the A74 used to be at Lesmahagow prior to the M74 extension in the mid 1980s.
Because the A1 is not as important as it sounds at Sandy. Most traffic on the A1 in that area will be starting or finishing their journeys fairly locally. Long distance traffic to / from east London, Kent, Essex will use the A14 / M11. Long distance traffic to / from west London, Heathrow, home counties north west and west of London will use the A421 / M1. Sandy is too far out to generate much London commuter traffic. So traffic on the A1 at Sandy is relatively low. That's not to say that improvements aren't justified.
I might try and make a mockup of how a bypass/realignment of the A1 at Sandy and the surrounding area could look in Merkaartor.
