Bad speed limits

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jervi
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by jervi »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 22:06 And I'm fairly certain that in the 1930s there were only two options available - 30 for restricted roads and no limit at all for derestricted roads. There was no in between 40 or 50.
I'd imagine that in the 1930s not many cars could exceed 50mph for sustained periods of time (i.e. being in control & not using fuel like there's no tomorrow, though due to cost, not environmental concerns). So maybe there was no real need for any in-between limit. Saved on signage too.
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Re: Bad speed limits

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Truvelo wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 22:06And I'm fairly certain that in the 1930s there were only two options available - 30 for restricted roads and no limit at all for derestricted roads. There was no in between 40 or 50.
And for a few years not even that. The speed limit was 20 mph until 1931, but was removed for being unenforceable. However due to the number of accidents in built-up areas the 30 mph one was introduced a few years later.

Although the lack of a limit was only for cars and motorcycles, there was still a speed limit for buses and goods vehicles. It was not until a number of motorway accidents in the 1960s that saw speed limits reintroduced for private vehicles as an experiment. Various experiments and measures then continued before the current form of the rules came into place in 1984.
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Re: Bad speed limits

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I love to use google map to find a cool thing.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Arcuarius »

In the first case at least, it appears because it's on private land and nobody bothered to write a TRO?
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PhilC
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by PhilC »

jervi wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 23:52
Truvelo wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 22:06 And I'm fairly certain that in the 1930s there were only two options available - 30 for restricted roads and no limit at all for derestricted roads. There was no in between 40 or 50.
I'd imagine that in the 1930s not many cars could exceed 50mph for sustained periods of time (i.e. being in control & not using fuel like there's no tomorrow, though due to cost, not environmental concerns). So maybe there was no real need for any in-between limit. Saved on signage too.
In the 1950s my father had a pre-war Standard Flying Ten. At much above 40mph it felt as though it was going to shake itself apart. Top speed was just a touch over 60mph if you were patient enough.

In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Octaviadriver »

PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39 In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
I can remember these on the A6 between Market Harborough and Kibworth that was mostly an S3 at the time. I'm not sure but did they also open them at weekends as well?

It didn't make much difference for a lot of the vehicles at that time whose top speed was not much higher. Did they ever check speeds on these sections and prosecute drivers ignoring the limit?
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by PhilC »

Octaviadriver wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:56
PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39 In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
I can remember these on the A6 between Market Harborough and Kibworth that was mostly an S3 at the time. I'm not sure but did they also open them at weekends as well?

It didn't make much difference for a lot of the vehicles at that time whose top speed was not much higher. Did they ever check speeds on these sections and prosecute drivers ignoring the limit?
They may well have opened them at weekends. I think at the time radar traps were in their infancy so any enforcement would have been using patrol cars. Also there were lots of coaches on the roads, which I think were restricted to 30mph.
roadsignfan
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by roadsignfan »

A pointless 30 mph limit in Street Somerset
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.132171, ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by rhyds »

PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39
jervi wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 23:52
Truvelo wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 22:06 And I'm fairly certain that in the 1930s there were only two options available - 30 for restricted roads and no limit at all for derestricted roads. There was no in between 40 or 50.
I'd imagine that in the 1930s not many cars could exceed 50mph for sustained periods of time (i.e. being in control & not using fuel like there's no tomorrow, though due to cost, not environmental concerns). So maybe there was no real need for any in-between limit. Saved on signage too.
In the 1950s my father had a pre-war Standard Flying Ten. At much above 40mph it felt as though it was going to shake itself apart. Top speed was just a touch over 60mph if you were patient enough.

In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
Most pre war and early post war cars would be flat-out at 60, and the engine and especially oil technology of the time certainly didn't take kindly to that kind of abuse and the engine would soon expire. This was apparently a very common issue with the M1 opened because the cars of the day couldn't handle someone hammering down 20 miles of 3-lane GSJ motorway at full power. The AA and RAC patrols would sometimes have to rope 2-3 cars together to tow them all off the had shoulder!
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by SteelCamel »

roadsignfan wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 09:56 A pointless 30 mph limit in Street Somerset
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.132171, ... 384!8i8192
I wonder if there's a design rule that 20mph zones should only be within 30mph zones - in which case this technically complies.

There's something similar here - https://goo.gl/maps/2kX3fv5gagQp5xir7 - although as that's a drop from 60 to 20 there's perhaps more reason for this one.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by avtur »

rhyds wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:07
PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39
jervi wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 23:52

I'd imagine that in the 1930s not many cars could exceed 50mph for sustained periods of time (i.e. being in control & not using fuel like there's no tomorrow, though due to cost, not environmental concerns). So maybe there was no real need for any in-between limit. Saved on signage too.
In the 1950s my father had a pre-war Standard Flying Ten. At much above 40mph it felt as though it was going to shake itself apart. Top speed was just a touch over 60mph if you were patient enough.

In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
Most pre war and early post war cars would be flat-out at 60, and the engine and especially oil technology of the time certainly didn't take kindly to that kind of abuse and the engine would soon expire. This was apparently a very common issue with the M1 opened because the cars of the day couldn't handle someone hammering down 20 miles of 3-lane GSJ motorway at full power. The AA and RAC patrols would sometimes have to rope 2-3 cars together to tow them all off the had shoulder!
The publicity guys at BMC would have us believe differently :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuwTWujeMM0&t=166s
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by rhyds »

avtur wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:14
rhyds wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:07
PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39
In the 1950s my father had a pre-war Standard Flying Ten. At much above 40mph it felt as though it was going to shake itself apart. Top speed was just a touch over 60mph if you were patient enough.

In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
Most pre war and early post war cars would be flat-out at 60, and the engine and especially oil technology of the time certainly didn't take kindly to that kind of abuse and the engine would soon expire. This was apparently a very common issue with the M1 opened because the cars of the day couldn't handle someone hammering down 20 miles of 3-lane GSJ motorway at full power. The AA and RAC patrols would sometimes have to rope 2-3 cars together to tow them all off the had shoulder!
The publicity guys at BMC would have us believe differently :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuwTWujeMM0&t=166s
I'd imagine they would!

That said, a brand new, properly serviced car would probably be OK, and one where the driver knew to ease off if the engine temperature started climbing or the oil pressure started dropping. The issue from what I understand was that a lot of the UK's car fleet in the early 60s wasn't well maintained (hence the introduction of the first MOT tests) and drivers would simply drop the hammer down and then look confused as most of the bottom end of their Hillman Minx engine made a bid for freedom somewhere near Bedford.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by ajuk »

The A4063 in Wales, I was on it last night, it's the classic example of when the whole practise of setting the speed limit back to an arbitrary location some distance away from the village didn't have the desired effect, they double down on their own f***ery and move them back even further of completely remove speed limit changes between villages. At one point the limit drops to 30 and then back up again a bit further on and there was no indication as to why. Vale of Glamorgan have been doing it as well.

As some maybe aware a village near me removed it's buffer zone and speeds through the village were reduced as a consequence.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by KeithW »

rhyds wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:22 I'd imagine they would!

That said, a brand new, properly serviced car would probably be OK, and one where the driver knew to ease off if the engine temperature started climbing or the oil pressure started dropping. The issue from what I understand was that a lot of the UK's car fleet in the early 60s wasn't well maintained (hence the introduction of the first MOT tests) and drivers would simply drop the hammer down and then look confused as most of the bottom end of their Hillman Minx engine made a bid for freedom somewhere near Bedford.
Those were cars selected for this publicity stunt and I would not be surprised if they had a few mods before they set off. As for MOT tests when they first came in they were looking for faults like poor brakes and steering.

Between 1977 and 1991 this is what they would check.

Tyres met the legal requirements, seat belts were fitted if legally required (front only at the beginning) , windscreen wipers and washers, lights, indicators, horn, exhaust system, body structure and chassis. Emissions and engine checks came later.

In 1960 the sort of cars that would be using the M1 would be

Morris 1000 - flat out at just over 60
Ford Anglia 105E - 74 mph
Vauxhall Velox

As others have said those cars were NOT designed to cruise at those speeds, the cooling systems werent up to it and even if you were going that fast, stopping was another matter. Drum brakes and no servo meant that at the end of an emergency stop you could be standing on the brake pedal

In the early 1970's it was far from unusual to see cars throw a rod or run a main bearing and end up on the hard shoulder belching smoke, mini 850's were often driven too fast, any car in those days would benefit from keeping the radiator matrix clean. Also critical was using a superior grade of oil, standard engine oil was purely mineral and would break down under hard running.

In 1972 I drove my Hillman Imp all the way from Teesside to Lake Constance and Munich but was very careful to cruise at 60 to 65 to make sure it didnt overheat. Even then the sight of a broken down Mk II Cortina or Vauxhall Victor steaming on the hard shoulder was far from unknown.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

rhyds wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:07
PhilC wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 14:39
jervi wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 23:52

I'd imagine that in the 1930s not many cars could exceed 50mph for sustained periods of time (i.e. being in control & not using fuel like there's no tomorrow, though due to cost, not environmental concerns). So maybe there was no real need for any in-between limit. Saved on signage too.
In the 1950s my father had a pre-war Standard Flying Ten. At much above 40mph it felt as though it was going to shake itself apart. Top speed was just a touch over 60mph if you were patient enough.

In the late 1950s or early 1960s I can remember part time 50mph limits on some A roads. The signs were hinged so they folded in half horizontally. When the 50mph limit was in force, usually bank holidays and summer Sundays, the signs were unfolded and clipped open.
Most pre war and early post war cars would be flat-out at 60, and the engine and especially oil technology of the time certainly didn't take kindly to that kind of abuse and the engine would soon expire. This was apparently a very common issue with the M1 opened because the cars of the day couldn't handle someone hammering down 20 miles of 3-lane GSJ motorway at full power. The AA and RAC patrols would sometimes have to rope 2-3 cars together to tow them all off the had shoulder!
The general consensus in the '50s was that no car in the UK could be run flat out for any length of time - the VW Beetle (as it was subsequently known) was the first to be designed specifically to run flat out on the Autobahn, a principle followed by all subsequent designers in Germany.

"Motor" magazine generally reckoned that 80% of tested top speed was a reasonable cruising speed, with the engine working at about 50% of rated power.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:51
rhyds wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:22 I'd imagine they would!

That said, a brand new, properly serviced car would probably be OK, and one where the driver knew to ease off if the engine temperature started climbing or the oil pressure started dropping. The issue from what I understand was that a lot of the UK's car fleet in the early 60s wasn't well maintained (hence the introduction of the first MOT tests) and drivers would simply drop the hammer down and then look confused as most of the bottom end of their Hillman Minx engine made a bid for freedom somewhere near Bedford.
Those were cars selected for this publicity stunt and I would not be surprised if they had a few mods before they set off. As for MOT tests when they first came in they were looking for faults like poor brakes and steering.

Between 1977 and 1991 this is what they would check.

Tyres met the legal requirements, seat belts were fitted if legally required (front only at the beginning) , windscreen wipers and washers, lights, indicators, horn, exhaust system, body structure and chassis. Emissions and engine checks came later.

In 1960 the sort of cars that would be using the M1 would be

Morris 1000 - flat out at just over 60
Ford Anglia 105E - 74 mph
Vauxhall Velox

As others have said those cars were NOT designed to cruise at those speeds, the cooling systems werent up to it and even if you were going that fast, stopping was another matter. Drum brakes and no servo meant that at the end of an emergency stop you could be standing on the brake pedal

In the early 1970's it was far from unusual to see cars throw a rod or run a main bearing and end up on the hard shoulder belching smoke, mini 850's were often driven too fast, any car in those days would benefit from keeping the radiator matrix clean. Also critical was using a superior grade of oil, standard engine oil was purely mineral and would break down under hard running.

In 1972 I drove my Hillman Imp all the way from Teesside to Lake Constance and Munich but was very careful to cruise at 60 to 65 to make sure it didnt overheat. Even then the sight of a broken down Mk II Cortina or Vauxhall Victor steaming on the hard shoulder was far from unknown.
Some cars could take it better than others - in the early '70s I had a Ford Escort 1.1 which was subjected to 85 mph cruising (speedo so more like 77 true) on my fortnightly trips between Wolverhampton and Peterhead, never missed a beat
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Re: Bad speed limits

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KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:51 In 1972 I drove my Hillman Imp ...
He he, I had one of those, terrible cars by modern standards. Ridiculously easy to take the engine out though, which is probably just as well. We seemed to spend half our time replacing doughnuts. (Probably an exaggeration, but it's my main memory of the thing!)
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 13:29
KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:51 In 1972 I drove my Hillman Imp ...
He he, I had one of those, terrible cars by modern standards. Ridiculously easy to take the engine out though, which is probably just as well. We seemed to spend half our time replacing doughnuts. (Probably an exaggeration, but it's my main memory of the thing!)
I liked my Imp, much more room inside than a Mini - I did though get caught out by the front aquaplaning in flood water, despite the ubiquitous ballast in the front boot.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by KeithW »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 13:29
KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:51 In 1972 I drove my Hillman Imp ...
He he, I had one of those, terrible cars by modern standards. Ridiculously easy to take the engine out though, which is probably just as well. We seemed to spend half our time replacing doughnuts. (Probably an exaggeration, but it's my main memory of the thing!)

I rather liked my Imp but I was lucky enough to get a late model that was pretty reliable, I replaced one set of doughnuts which was easy enough if you had the compression tool. Taking the engine and transmission out was a doddle, the rear panel was held on by bolts so you could wheel it out on a trolley jack. It did come to a bad end however. Driving through Epping at 29 mph (followed by a police car) I was somewhat startled when he went to lights and siren. When I pulled over I found out why, the engine bay was on fire. The petrol line to the carburettor had split and blown fuel all over the exhaust manifold , that was the end of that !

In an accident a mini was a death trap, typically the engine pushed back into the passenger compartment crushing the legs of the driver and front seat passenger. I witnessed one such accident at relatively low speed where both driver and passenger died of blood loss before the fire brigade could cut them out.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by avtur »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 14:53 ... The petrol line to the carburettor had split and blown fuel all over the exhaust manifold , that was the end of that ! ...
My Imp (well Singer Chamois) suffered a split oil line, right at the engine block, where it took a live oil pressure feed from the block to the oil pressure gauge on the dashboard. Unknown to me the engine pumped all its oil out, which very quickly lead to overheating and a knackered engine :(
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