Bad speed limits

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
dereer
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 18:51
Location: County Monaghan, Ireland
Contact:

Bad speed limits

Post by dereer »

What are the worst speed limits you've seen on roads in the UK or Ireland?
Eg: 60km/h on rural dual carriageway
70mph single carriageway motorway
etc.
it/he/they | aka computerfan0
My travelled roads can be found here.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

dereer wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:03 What are the worst speed limits you've seen on roads in the UK or Ireland?
Eg: 60km/h on rural dual carriageway
70mph single carriageway motorway
etc.
Most 20mph limits. Maybe with the exception of *part-time* limits around school gates (i.e. not 24/7/365 limits).

Round here, Birmingham council has steadily been dropping the 40 limits on its arterial dual-carriageways to 30 for no evident reason, i.e. the only change in the characteristic of the road has been the speed limit itself. And new pieces of dual-carriageway such as the Northfield by-pass did not get a 40 limit in the first place.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
rhyds
Member
Posts: 13724
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 15:51
Location: Beautiful North Wales

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by rhyds »

First off, the 50mph "for environmental reasons" limits on the A470 and A483 HQDCs. They miss the main source of the emissions they're trying to cut down (NOx and particulates from diesels, especially trucks) and deeply erode the idea that speed limits are above all a tool for road safety, not agenda setting.

Secondly, blanket 50mph re-limiting on rural non primary routes. I can understand the need for targeted 50mph limits on some sections, but particular local authorities (Wrecsam, the two Cheshires especially) are dropping everything to 50 (sometimes even adding average speed camera enforcement) but don't provide any maintenance or improvements which would do much more to improve road safety.
Built for comfort, not speed.
User avatar
dereer
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 18:51
Location: County Monaghan, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by dereer »

There is an 80km/h limit on the N2 north of Monaghan town to Emyvale, despite being a (relatively narrow but) straight road.
Compare to many 100km/h NS roads which are both narrow and bendy.
it/he/they | aka computerfan0
My travelled roads can be found here.
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Alderpoint »

The 50mph limit on the southern part of Coventry eastern bypass (A46). This was all 70mph for about 20 years until the "improvements" at Tollbar results in an arbitrary transition to 50mph over a mile away from Toll bar - its too far. Needless to say the limit is almost universally ignored.

I can see the justification for the 50 limit under the new junction and along the A45/A46 multiplex where there are massive amounts of weaving traffic, despite this being 60mph prior to the improvements.
Let it snow.
jimboLL
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 13:37

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by jimboLL »

All 50mph limits on any DC or motorway.

Not in the UK or Ireland, but the most dangerous I've come across is the 90km/h on the N201 at Chambery, France.

Everyone doing the same speed = no-one can get to the lane they need in a safe manner.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

Alderpoint wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 14:46 The 50mph limit on the southern part of Coventry eastern bypass (A46). This was all 70mph for about 20 years until the "improvements" at Tollbar results in an arbitrary transition to 50mph over a mile away from Toll bar - its too far. Needless to say the limit is almost universally ignored.

I can see the justification for the 50 limit under the new junction and along the A45/A46 multiplex where there are massive amounts of weaving traffic, despite this being 60mph prior to the improvements.
A45 between Cov and M42 still keeps its 60 limit despite all the at-grade crossings having been stopped up. There really is no good reason for that not to be NSL these days. And the 40 limit on the new diversion around the Birmingham Airport runway extension is tedious, that could easily be 50.

Warwickshire now has a lot of rural 50s and extended 40s near villages that appear to serve no useful purpose.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by fras »

For me it has to be the blanket roll-out of 20 and 50 mph limits. Totally stupid, but probably the most stupid in recent months has been the 50 mph applied to virtually the whole of the A555 extensions. When I queried it with the team responsible, I was told "the model tells us the limit should be 50 mph". I can't help but think that the model is wrong when one see perfectly safe motoring 10 mph above the 50 mph. The only accidents I believe have been at the at-grade junctions and not speed-related at all.

The blanket 20 mph in the whole of Exeter is another barmy piece of political spite.
xfield
Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:53
Location: Stockport

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by xfield »

fras wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 21:32 For me it has to be the blanket roll-out of 20 and 50 mph limits. Totally stupid, but probably the most stupid in recent months has been the 50 mph applied to virtually the whole of the A555 extensions. When I queried it with the team responsible, I was told "the model tells us the limit should be 50 mph". I can't help but think that the model is wrong when one see perfectly safe motoring 10 mph above the 50 mph. The only accidents I believe have been at the at-grade junctions and not speed-related at all.
I does feel it should be 60, especially at the airport end, and should just drop to 40 at the junctions.

I'd like to nominate the A556 at Mere - built to 70 mph standard, but features a 60 mph limit due to eco reasons, and then the 50 mph on the large sweeping bend by the Bowdon Roundabout - even though the much tighter older bends just off the M56 are NSL. Bonkers - if they upped each of the limits by 10 mph, they might be respected!
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Berk »

I’m starting to see areas where development is slowly picking up, new suburbs and streets being built. That leads to local limits being reduced, and reduced again. The A15 south of Peterborough is a case in point.

Coming off the Fletton Parkway (J3), the Serpentine parkway currently has NSL. It’s proposed to be reduced soon to 40. However, this will make it congruent with the adjacent A15. I’m fairly sure that was NSL until the turn of the century.

Then came a 50 limit. Then came 40 limits at either end between Peterborough and Yaxley. Now it’s 40 throughout.

So from A1(M) J16, that’ll be 40 right from Yaxley to the A1139.

From the SABRE Wiki: Fletton Parkway :
of which, junctions 0 to 4 are named "Fletton
... Read More
Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Al__S »

The default NSL of 60mph.

On many minor country roads this is clearly unattainable safely by anyone short of a rally driver, and only if they can guarantee there's never going to be oncoming traffic. It leads to weird nonsense like here
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Al__S wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 07:01 The default NSL of 60mph.
It is a limit, not a target.

Just because the limit is 60 does not mean it is attainable
User avatar
Arcuarius
Member
Posts: 4664
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:14
Location: Sherwood

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Arcuarius »

Wow. This is a can of worms you've opened.

I don't believe there are that many bad speed limits. They're obviously put in place for a reason, though in an ideal world they'd make other changes instead. Perhaps if people didn't rush about like morons all the time - and crucially, they could be trusted to judge the correct speed for themselves - said morons wouldn't need babying.
"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty."
- some extreme-right nutcase


1973-2007 Never forgotten
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47They're obviously put in place for a reason ...
But is it always a good reason? I have grave doubts about that.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Helvellyn
Member
Posts: 24664
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 22:31
Location: High Peak

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Helvellyn »

Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47 Wow. This is a can of worms you've opened.

I don't believe there are that many bad speed limits. They're obviously put in place for a reason, though in an ideal world they'd make other changes instead. Perhaps if people didn't rush about like morons all the time - and crucially, they could be trusted to judge the correct speed for themselves - said morons wouldn't need babying.
Said morons shouldn't be driving at all. There's your problem, not people doing 60 mph on a dead straight S2 where you can see for a couple of miles. If you can't really deal with the morons, well, quite frankly I'd rather put up with them than have everyone treated like a moron.
User avatar
rhyds
Member
Posts: 13724
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 15:51
Location: Beautiful North Wales

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by rhyds »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:07
Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47They're obviously put in place for a reason ...
But is it always a good reason? I have grave doubts about that.
This. There are plenty of sensible speed limits in place, the problem arises when roads authorities use speed limits as either a quick fix instead of meaningful upgrades and/or to keep vocal minorities quiet.
Built for comfort, not speed.
User avatar
Helvellyn
Member
Posts: 24664
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 22:31
Location: High Peak

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Helvellyn »

rhyds wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:07
Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47They're obviously put in place for a reason ...
But is it always a good reason? I have grave doubts about that.
This. There are plenty of sensible speed limits in place, the problem arises when roads authorities use speed limits as either a quick fix instead of meaningful upgrades and/or to keep vocal minorities quiet.
Which in turn brings them into disrepute. If lowered ones are unusual enough people will generally respect them, other than the type who'll ignore every limit anyway, on the assumption that they are there for a good and perhaps not immediately obvious reason.
User avatar
rhyds
Member
Posts: 13724
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 15:51
Location: Beautiful North Wales

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by rhyds »

Helvellyn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:18
rhyds wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:15
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:07 But is it always a good reason? I have grave doubts about that.
This. There are plenty of sensible speed limits in place, the problem arises when roads authorities use speed limits as either a quick fix instead of meaningful upgrades and/or to keep vocal minorities quiet.
Which in turn brings them into disrepute. If lowered ones are unusual enough people will generally respect them, other than the type who'll ignore every limit anyway, on the assumption that they are there for a good and perhaps not immediately obvious reason.
In the past, I've always stuck to signed speed limits because you could be reasonably sure there was a reason for them. Over the last 5-8 years however more and more spurious limits have shown up, the worst examples being when Gwynedd/North and Mid Wales Trunk Roads Agency checked over all their barriers and suddenly found that a lot of them weren't specified for NSL, cue rash of random short 50mph limits while they took 2-3 years to upgrade the barriers (if they could be bothered)
Built for comfort, not speed.
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

Helvellyn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:14
Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47 Wow. This is a can of worms you've opened.

I don't believe there are that many bad speed limits. They're obviously put in place for a reason, though in an ideal world they'd make other changes instead. Perhaps if people didn't rush about like morons all the time - and crucially, they could be trusted to judge the correct speed for themselves - said morons wouldn't need babying.
Said morons shouldn't be driving at all. There's your problem, not people doing 60 mph on a dead straight S2 where you can see for a couple of miles. If you can't really deal with the morons, well, quite frankly I'd rather put up with them than have everyone treated like a moron.
This. It is surely better to make rules that serve their purpose and are understood by most people most of the time, and then clobber the minority who take the pee even so, than to indulge in woolly thinking, see cause and effect where it doesn't exist and at the same time lose the majority's respect for what you're doing.

Sweden is a lot worse for this than the UK in the specific matter of speed limits. Many speed limits are set at a speed in km/h that would be reasonable if interpreted as the same figure in mph. It's not just me, or just a few speed demons, who think this. There are swathes of 30 or 40 km/h limits on through routes in towns and virtually everywhere in rural areas that doesn't have some form of central reservation has a 70 limit. It is entirely normal to be in platoons of traffic doing 50 on the former and 90 or 100 on the latter. There's a wire-separated S2+1 stretch near me with an inexplicable 70 limit where people regularly do 110. This is in a place where speed is regulated by the slowest driver as it's a single lane stretch. Let's be clear about the implications of this: we are talking about the majority of drivers doing up to 60% over the posted limit as a general habit.

Yet Sweden vies with the rest of Scandinavia and the UK for top place in the KSI stats in developed countries. Of course, the government will ascribe this position to the low limits, conveniently forgetting the level of compliance. If they raised most limits on through roads by 20 km/h or even more, it would probably have zip effect on the accident statistics. Could it simply be that absolute speed - as opposed to a specific speed chosen by a specific motorist at a specific time and place - just isn't that important to road safety?

We don't really know the answer to that question, because the groupthink that prevails all over prevents the hypothesis from being tested. But the fact that KSIs on Swedish roads are not sky high despite mindboggling levels of non-compliance with speed limits would suggest that the question is at least worthy of sensible attention.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
dereer
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 18:51
Location: County Monaghan, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Bad speed limits

Post by dereer »

FosseWay wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 16:33
Helvellyn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 13:14
Arcuarius wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:47 Wow. This is a can of worms you've opened.

I don't believe there are that many bad speed limits. They're obviously put in place for a reason, though in an ideal world they'd make other changes instead. Perhaps if people didn't rush about like morons all the time - and crucially, they could be trusted to judge the correct speed for themselves - said morons wouldn't need babying.
Said morons shouldn't be driving at all. There's your problem, not people doing 60 mph on a dead straight S2 where you can see for a couple of miles. If you can't really deal with the morons, well, quite frankly I'd rather put up with them than have everyone treated like a moron.
This. It is surely better to make rules that serve their purpose and are understood by most people most of the time, and then clobber the minority who take the pee even so, than to indulge in woolly thinking, see cause and effect where it doesn't exist and at the same time lose the majority's respect for what you're doing.

Sweden is a lot worse for this than the UK in the specific matter of speed limits. Many speed limits are set at a speed in km/h that would be reasonable if interpreted as the same figure in mph. It's not just me, or just a few speed demons, who think this. There are swathes of 30 or 40 km/h limits on through routes in towns and virtually everywhere in rural areas that doesn't have some form of central reservation has a 70 limit. It is entirely normal to be in platoons of traffic doing 50 on the former and 90 or 100 on the latter. There's a wire-separated S2+1 stretch near me with an inexplicable 70 limit where people regularly do 110. This is in a place where speed is regulated by the slowest driver as it's a single lane stretch. Let's be clear about the implications of this: we are talking about the majority of drivers doing up to 60% over the posted limit as a general habit.

Yet Sweden vies with the rest of Scandinavia and the UK for top place in the KSI stats in developed countries. Of course, the government will ascribe this position to the low limits, conveniently forgetting the level of compliance. If they raised most limits on through roads by 20 km/h or even more, it would probably have zip effect on the accident statistics. Could it simply be that absolute speed - as opposed to a specific speed chosen by a specific motorist at a specific time and place - just isn't that important to road safety?

We don't really know the answer to that question, because the groupthink that prevails all over prevents the hypothesis from being tested. But the fact that KSIs on Swedish roads are not sky high despite mindboggling levels of non-compliance with speed limits would suggest that the question is at least worthy of sensible attention.
Meanwhile, if you tried interpreting the km/h limits in Ireland as the same figure in mph, you would just rear-end a tractor!
So here is the bad part:
You can do 80km/h on a narrow one-lane road with grass growing up the middle, the same limit as some perfectly good R-road dual carriageways well capable of 100+km/h.
At least the government has some 100km/h high quality R-roads (R132) and some 120km/h HQDCs (N25 Cork to Midleton, N1 north of Dundalk).
Wonder what would happen if said 2+1 road with cable barrier was in UK? (NSL)
it/he/they | aka computerfan0
My travelled roads can be found here.
Post Reply