Bad speed limits

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Garsty
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Re: Absurd speed limits

Post by Garsty »

haymansafc wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:39 The 50mph limit on the D3 section of the A494 in Deeside continues to frustrate motorists. It's been reduced from NSL for 'environmental' reasons and is widely ignored.

When it was introduced last summer, it was supposed to be a temporary measure that would last eighteen months. To little surprise, despite concerns from locals of the limit being so low considering it being such a major artery to and from North Wales, it's now looking likely to be made permanent.

Please see this article from earlier on this month for more details.
It’s the same for the stretch on the A483 near Wrexham, had some fun experiences along there since the reduced limit was introduced.

What I do think it is a problem when limits are reduced on the main routes, but roads joining it are not, the amount of extra signs is absurd and looks ridiculous . A good example is the B4500 from Chirk into Glyn Ceiriog, which in the last few years has been reduced to a 50, with all of its associated repeaters but leads to the situation where every side road has now got a set of signs as they are still NSL, whilst GSV hasn’t been updated down there is sometime an example can be seen here: https://goo.gl/maps/Xd28L2vWWb8KMA4ZA If you go there now you will find a pair of NSL signs on that narrow uphill stretch and associated 50 sings when coming down.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by thecjgcjg »

For me, the worst i've found is New Court Rd. in Burham, Kent.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3346008 ... 312!8i6656

It's a 40mph, I am a local, and I rarely see this road being used at anything less than the NSL, if not hugher. Even the police will treat this road as a national speed limit. Worst part is, the road was only opened 2 (ish) years ago, and was set as a 40mph with no public consultation or anything of the sort (that I can find). I'm not sure why it has the limit that it has.

Or here, near Coventry, https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3846013 ... 312!8i6656
The 40MPH starts way too early, very few people follow this.

Both of these, in my head are "bad" speed limits. The first more so, as they don't get any respect from the majority of drivers, it'd be arguably better to have a higher, more reasonable limit, which is more followed.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Berk »

This is a pointless limit. The only reason there’s a 40 limit is for the SCOOT system to activate the lights sequence at the roundabout.

Nobody obeys it (except the odd learner, or unless there’s the rare camera van), it has obviously nothing to do with safety. This impresses on me the fact that not all limits are to do with safety.
Last edited by Berk on Sun Apr 28, 2019 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by FleetlinePhil »

Berk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 20:20 This is a pointless limit. The only reason there’s a 40 limit is for the SCOOT system to activate the lights sequence at the roundabout.

Nobody obeys it (except the odd learner, or unless there’s the rare camera van), it has obviously nothing to do with safety. This impresses on me the fact that not all limits are to do with safety.
I think your link needs a second look - you've not put the url in.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Berk »

Fixed it.
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c2R
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by c2R »

I always find the 60 limit on the A2 here too fast - I'm surprised it's not been brought down to 40, as there's various properties/shops/frontages, and invariably HGVs pulling out...

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.1052532 ... 312!8i6656

While on the opposite end of the spectrum on the A1072 here, this is 40 and should realistically be NSL as there are no frontages and full separation of pedestrians/cyclists - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9178212 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Bryn666 »

Berk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 20:20 This is a pointless limit. The only reason there’s a 40 limit is for the SCOOT system to activate the lights sequence at the roundabout.

Nobody obeys it (except the odd learner, or unless there’s the rare camera van), it has obviously nothing to do with safety. This impresses on me the fact that not all limits are to do with safety.
If the limit is there to help the signals operate correctly then by definition it isn't pointless is it?

And that limit starts about 200m before a stop line. If slowing down for a junction anyway is such an inconvenience then perhaps driving is not for you.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by FosseWay »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 09:20
Berk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 20:20 This is a pointless limit. The only reason there’s a 40 limit is for the SCOOT system to activate the lights sequence at the roundabout.

Nobody obeys it (except the odd learner, or unless there’s the rare camera van), it has obviously nothing to do with safety. This impresses on me the fact that not all limits are to do with safety.
If the limit is there to help the signals operate correctly then by definition it isn't pointless is it?
Not pointless, perhaps, but it does raise some questions. Given Joe Public's tendency to ignore many limits unless there is immediately visible enforcement of them, what are the implications for the correct operation of the signals? What is the result if the signals don't work correctly because the speed limit is not obeyed, and does that result in itself matter? I find it hard to believe that engineers would install a set of signals that relied for their safety effect on traffic travelling at less than a given speed, and then not enforce the speed limit. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to suppose either that correct operation is in fact achievable at higher speeds than the posted limit, or that whatever consequences of incorrect operation do occur are not readily noticeable.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Berk »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 09:20
Berk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 20:20 This is a pointless limit. The only reason there’s a 40 limit is for the SCOOT system to activate the lights sequence at the roundabout.

Nobody obeys it (except the odd learner, or unless there’s the rare camera van), it has obviously nothing to do with safety. This impresses on me the fact that not all limits are to do with safety.
If the limit is there to help the signals operate correctly then by definition it isn't pointless is it?

And that limit starts about 200m before a stop line. If slowing down for a junction anyway is such an inconvenience then perhaps driving is not for you.
It’s actually 375 yards. So more like 350m. The lights also appear to operate correctly without cars complying with the limit.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by trickstat »

c2R wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 23:11 While on the opposite end of the spectrum on the A1072 here, this is 40 and should realistically be NSL as there are no frontages and full separation of pedestrians/cyclists - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9178212 ... 312!8i6656
Apparently the local police were against the imposition of a 40 limit on this stretch of Martin's Way. Thankfully they don't seem to put vans here as often as in other places in Stevenage (e.g the A602 in the south of the town). If I did 40 along here in a driving lesson in the 80s I would be told that I needed to go quicker.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Fenlander »

Not too far away from there is this 40 which exists solely for the pedestrian crossing, the limit returning to NSL immediately before the roundabout. Compliance with the limit is very poor and in all my times passing through there I don't think I've ever seen the crossing actually being used.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

Fenlander wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 13:23 Not too far away from there is this 40 which exists solely for the pedestrian crossing, the limit returning to NSL immediately before the roundabout. Compliance with the limit is very poor and in all my times passing through there I don't think I've ever seen the crossing actually being used.
Push-buttons at high level, looks like a bridleway crossing. But it does seem to be in the middle of nowhere, doesn't it?
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Berk »

It’s right on the edge of the city. There was a bridleway passing close by, hence the Pegasus crossing.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

I was reminded of another one yesterday. A453 between M1 J24 and Clifton, on the outskirts of Nottingham, was dualled only three or four years ago (and renamed Remembrance Way). Well, almost all dualled - between the roundabout giving access to the P&R site where the trams terminate and the Clifton Lane roundabout, it was left as S4, 2 lanes each way. The dualled section is all NSL. This S4 section is a 40 limit, and in fact this is a reduction as about two thirds of it used to be NSL before the dualling project (I think the change of limit was at the Nottingham city boundary). This is how it looks, and how anybody seriously keeps down to 40 in the absence of plod is a mystery to me.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 15:36 I was reminded of another one yesterday. A453 between M1 J24 and Clifton, on the outskirts of Nottingham, was dualled only three or four years ago (and renamed Remembrance Way). Well, almost all dualled - between the roundabout giving access to the P&R site where the trams terminate and the Clifton Lane roundabout, it was left as S4, 2 lanes each way. The dualled section is all NSL. This S4 section is a 40 limit, and in fact this is a reduction as about two thirds of it used to be NSL before the dualling project (I think the change of limit was at the Nottingham city boundary). This is how it looks, and how anybody seriously keeps down to 40 in the absence of plod is a mystery to me.
It's a reflection of road design standards as if it had a 50 limit or higher it now would require a central reservation and barriers. Four lane single carriageway doesn't appear to be permitted in DMRB for non-urban routes.

The real question is why when there are no obvious constraints a narrow central reserve with concrete barrier hasn't been provided; I can only presume cost cutting.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:24
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 15:36 I was reminded of another one yesterday. A453 between M1 J24 and Clifton, on the outskirts of Nottingham, was dualled only three or four years ago (and renamed Remembrance Way). Well, almost all dualled - between the roundabout giving access to the P&R site where the trams terminate and the Clifton Lane roundabout, it was left as S4, 2 lanes each way. The dualled section is all NSL. This S4 section is a 40 limit, and in fact this is a reduction as about two thirds of it used to be NSL before the dualling project (I think the change of limit was at the Nottingham city boundary). This is how it looks, and how anybody seriously keeps down to 40 in the absence of plod is a mystery to me.
It's a reflection of road design standards as if it had a 50 limit or higher it now would require a central reservation and barriers. Four lane single carriageway doesn't appear to be permitted in DMRB for non-urban routes.

The real question is why when there are no obvious constraints a narrow central reserve with concrete barrier hasn't been provided; I can only presume cost cutting.
Sadly Streetview doesn't go back before 2015 here, but IIRC it was S2+1 before the improvemens, with the 2-lane side uphill. It's been widened to become S2+2, so are you saying that if they'd left it alone it could have stayed NSL? The remainder of the A453 up to the A52 junction is also 4-lane but is more urban in character and has a 40 limit, which seems reasonable given the frequency of junctions and crossing points. This section has an adjacent cycle lane but is otherwise isolated from pedestrian use. It seems like the standards are rather inflexible in this case.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:38
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:24
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 15:36 I was reminded of another one yesterday. A453 between M1 J24 and Clifton, on the outskirts of Nottingham, was dualled only three or four years ago (and renamed Remembrance Way). Well, almost all dualled - between the roundabout giving access to the P&R site where the trams terminate and the Clifton Lane roundabout, it was left as S4, 2 lanes each way. The dualled section is all NSL. This S4 section is a 40 limit, and in fact this is a reduction as about two thirds of it used to be NSL before the dualling project (I think the change of limit was at the Nottingham city boundary). This is how it looks, and how anybody seriously keeps down to 40 in the absence of plod is a mystery to me.
It's a reflection of road design standards as if it had a 50 limit or higher it now would require a central reservation and barriers. Four lane single carriageway doesn't appear to be permitted in DMRB for non-urban routes.

The real question is why when there are no obvious constraints a narrow central reserve with concrete barrier hasn't been provided; I can only presume cost cutting.
Sadly Streetview doesn't go back before 2015 here, but IIRC it was S2+1 before the improvemens, with the 2-lane side uphill. It's been widened to become S2+2, so are you saying that if they'd left it alone it could have stayed NSL? The remainder of the A453 up to the A52 junction is also 4-lane but is more urban in character and has a 40 limit, which seems reasonable given the frequency of junctions and crossing points. This section has an adjacent cycle lane but is otherwise isolated from pedestrian use. It seems like the standards are rather inflexible in this case.
The second you upgrade a trunk road you have to comply with current standards; it's likely that even if the road wasn't touched there they'd have dropped the limit anyway, but the S2+1 configuration supposedly can't be confused for a dual carriageway.

To me that S4 bit there should be 50 as many other much older S4s are, regardless of the DMRB (which is indeed inflexible and not fit for purpose IMV in many areas).
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by A9NWIL »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:24
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 15:36 I was reminded of another one yesterday. A453 between M1 J24 and Clifton, on the outskirts of Nottingham, was dualled only three or four years ago (and renamed Remembrance Way). Well, almost all dualled - between the roundabout giving access to the P&R site where the trams terminate and the Clifton Lane roundabout, it was left as S4, 2 lanes each way. The dualled section is all NSL. This S4 section is a 40 limit, and in fact this is a reduction as about two thirds of it used to be NSL before the dualling project (I think the change of limit was at the Nottingham city boundary). This is how it looks, and how anybody seriously keeps down to 40 in the absence of plod is a mystery to me.
It's a reflection of road design standards as if it had a 50 limit or higher it now would require a central reservation and barriers. Four lane single carriageway doesn't appear to be permitted in DMRB for non-urban routes.

The real question is why when there are no obvious constraints a narrow central reserve with concrete barrier hasn't been provided; I can only presume cost cutting.
I expect it would be easy to add a central reserve to that, just add an extra bit to one side, install a concrete barrier in the centre and remark the lanes on the side that has been extended.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by ajuk »

On the new Stoke Gifford Bypass I previously mentioned, the 40mph section has an average speed (36mph) 6mph lower than that of the 30mph section where it's 42mph, yes that's a mean average speed, not an 85th percentile.
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Re: Bad speed limits

Post by MFB »

How about this one in East London? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5101174 ... 384!8i8192

You'll see 20mph marking on the road surface but zoom into the central reservations and you'll see 40mph on the first lamppost and 30mph on the next.

Where is the logic!?
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