Dual unprotected right turns

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Skipsy
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Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Skipsy »

So I recently discovered this dual unprotected turn onto the A40, and it made me question how common these are?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5132604 ... 312!8i6656
Usually if 2 lanes can turn right, they are protected, but not in this case.
And are there junctions with 3 or more unprotected right turns?

(Just to clarify, yes if you move forward on street view, you can see that the right hand filter is not used throughout the whole phase)
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jervi
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by jervi »

Initially I thought this was one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3648181 ... 312!8i6656 - A23/B275. However due to the junction having 5 arms, it looks like this arm is unpaired, so a green bulb allows all turns to be protected.

But I couldn't find any actual ones in the UK. However they are rife in the US (unprotected multi lane left turns). However some states/places use an amber left aspect or a sign saying "left turns yield on green" for unprotected left turns.
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by TS »

Really sorry if I'm being a right div, but can you explain what unprotected means in this context? I'm struggling to appreciate anything unusual about that junction!
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by jervi »

TS wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 14:33 Really sorry if I'm being a right div, but can you explain what unprotected means in this context? I'm struggling to appreciate anything unusual about that junction!
I believe the OP is referring to two lanes that turn right across oncoming traffic.
So the right turns are controlled by the same signal as traffic going ahead, which would also be the same signal for oncoming traffic, so the two right turning lanes have to giveway to the on-coming traffic.

However, the example in the OP does have a green aspect, OP claims it isn't used, however I'd imagine it is used for a late start to clear the junction. Such as here
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by traffic-light-man »

This junction on the A5036 is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see, the signals have signage mounted to the top to remind drivers to give way, and they also have full-greens rather than arrows (unsurprisingly).
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Skipsy »

jervi wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:23
TS wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 14:33 Really sorry if I'm being a right div, but can you explain what unprotected means in this context? I'm struggling to appreciate anything unusual about that junction!
I believe the OP is referring to two lanes that turn right across oncoming traffic.
So the right turns are controlled by the same signal as traffic going ahead, which would also be the same signal for oncoming traffic, so the two right turning lanes have to giveway to the on-coming traffic.

However, the example in the OP does have a green aspect, OP claims it isn't used, however I'd imagine it is used for a late start to clear the junction. Such as here
Didn't say the right filter isn't used, just said its not used for the whole green light phase
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Skipsy »

jervi wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 16:34 Initially I thought this was one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3648181 ... 312!8i6656 - A23/B275. However due to the junction having 5 arms, it looks like this arm is unpaired, so a green bulb allows all turns to be protected.

But I couldn't find any actual ones in the UK. However they are rife in the US (unprotected multi lane left turns). However some states/places use an amber left aspect or a sign saying "left turns yield on green" for unprotected left turns.
Yeah I'm actually familiar with that one, when there's 5 arms, if 2 pairs of the arms are opposite, then each pair will usually have a green phase and the last arm will have its own green light.
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Skipsy »

TS wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 14:33 Really sorry if I'm being a right div, but can you explain what unprotected means in this context? I'm struggling to appreciate anything unusual about that junction!
Yeah its when traffic must give way while turning right at a green light, and then a turn is protected when this isn't the case
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c2R
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by c2R »

Green Lanes turning on to Seven Sisters road is one I'm familiar with - you need to watch out when travelling towards the camera here that someone doesn't crash into you thinking that they have right of way.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5710812 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by traffic-light-man »

I'd completely forgotten this one just down the road from me, although it's a complete botch rather than something planned in from day one.

Chapel Street (heading away from view up the hill) used to be one-way eastbound, but in the early 2000s was converted to a contraflow bus lane. As a result, a pair of left turn only signals were added to Chapel Street, and although there was a conflict, it was perhaps less pronounced when it was a bus lane. The Chapel Street signals were delayed by a few seconds, perhaps to establish the two-lane right as a dominant flow.

Roll the clock forward to Mayor Joe's abolition of bus lanes, and suddenly Chapel Street became a fairly well used through route and certainly a busy exit from the business district. This resulted in the two-lane right and single-lane left, both with green arrows, coming in to a much more obvious conflict. From what I've observed, left turners normally end up giving way, or it is dealt with by who's can blast the vehicle's horn louder and longer.

Thankfully, this setup has now been decommissioned and the whole junction is set to become a simple crossroads within a few months.
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Chris584 »

Just seen the view of Green Lanes/Seven Sisters Rd, at Manor House. I used to live about 200 yards from there for most of my childhood years, and I know a lot of the flat's have been demolished for redevelopment, but that Junction was for many years all granite setts from when the trams were about. I'm not old enough to remember them, but I do remember trolleybuses there along with the SGE lights (some with "smiley" lenses).
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Skipsy »

c2R wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 16:45 Green Lanes turning on to Seven Sisters road is one I'm familiar with - you need to watch out when travelling towards the camera here that someone doesn't crash into you thinking that they have right of way.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5710812 ... 312!8i6656
Also Seven Sisters Road turning onto Green Lanes is a dual turn: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5708618 ... 312!8i6656
And now I'm questioning why its plural "Green Lanes" rather than "Green Lane"
Never seen a plural in a road name before
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Chris584 »

I don't know why it's plural, but I know it goes from Newington Green to Winchmore Hill even though the bit between Turnpike Lane & Wood Green tube stations is High Road, and the bit outside Wood Green bus garage is called Jolly Butchers Hill. The nearby pub is or was the Jolly Butchers. After that I believe it's Green Lanes all the way to Winchmore Hill.
It's also the road that had one of the "matchstick man" crossing experiments through Harringay. (see my avatar).
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c2R
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by c2R »

Skipsy wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 16:45
c2R wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 16:45 Green Lanes turning on to Seven Sisters road is one I'm familiar with - you need to watch out when travelling towards the camera here that someone doesn't crash into you thinking that they have right of way.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5710812 ... 312!8i6656
Also Seven Sisters Road turning onto Green Lanes is a dual turn: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5708618 ... 312!8i6656
And now I'm questioning why its plural "Green Lanes" rather than "Green Lane"
Never seen a plural in a road name before
I suppose because it's a relatively long historical drovers route into London, probably made up of lots of lanes originally...
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by PhilC »

There's this junction where either lane can be used to turn right. When you approach the junction it initially looks like a T junction because it is slightly staggered. If you don't know the junction you might not expect to have to give way to traffic coming from the road opposite.

https://goo.gl/maps/K7sFbyBppmyfiEYW9
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Bryn666 »

traffic-light-man wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 16:12 This junction on the A5036 is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see, the signals have signage mounted to the top to remind drivers to give way, and they also have full-greens rather than arrows (unsurprisingly).
That junction is, and always has been, a complete abortion of a design.
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by traffic-light-man »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 20:27 That junction is, and always has been, a complete abortion of a design.
Indeed. Of course, it was born out a roundabout, but unlike a lot of previously-roundabout crossroads, it seems to take some very curvy design cues from the roundabout in order to squish lots of lanes in - I think it's most notable in lane 1 of the A5036 westbound. Having said that, it feels more drastic when driving through the junction than it appears on a satellite image!
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Bryn666 »

I'm sure when HE slam a new at-grade junction to the west having destroyed Rimrose Valley Park this monster will be transferred to LCC who'll have no money to actually fix it.

And people wonder why I am the way I am!
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by AlexBr967 »

traffic-light-man wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 16:12 This junction on the A5036 is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. As you can see, the signals have signage mounted to the top to remind drivers to give way, and they also have full-greens rather than arrows (unsurprisingly).
Looks like they were trying to do what was done here but didn't have enough space so botched it.
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Re: Dual unprotected right turns

Post by Britain »

PhilC wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 19:13 There's this junction where either lane can be used to turn right. When you approach the junction it initially looks like a T junction because it is slightly staggered. If you don't know the junction you might not expect to have to give way to traffic coming from the road opposite.

https://goo.gl/maps/K7sFbyBppmyfiEYW9
If I had a green light and I was turning right there then I absolutely would not expect to have to give way to anything coming from the left/left-straight. It's a good job I tend to check for red light jumpers before going through green or it'd probably catch me out there.

In fact, all of the junctions in this topic have been horrendous and it wouldn't surprise me if they had a higher number of crashes and near-misses than other roads.
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