Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris5156
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris5156 »

ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 14:12 Why do they have the Welsh bits the same font and colour as English?
It’s a requirement that both are treated equally, which is interpreted to mean identically. If one was in a different font or colour, it would either be more prominent or less prominent, either of which would mean the two languages no longer appeared as equals.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

But now Welsh is always above English, which could easily be interpreted as not treating them the same. It's not really possible to treat them the same anyhow.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:53
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 14:12 Why do they have the Welsh bits the same font and colour as English?
It’s a requirement that both are treated equally, which is interpreted to mean identically. If one was in a different font or colour, it would either be more prominent or less prominent, either of which would mean the two languages no longer appeared as equals.
I'm pretty sure it would be possible to keep them both prominent with a slightly different font or colour, I would have thought it would make the signs easier to read for both English speakers who can't read Welsh and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:50 ...and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
Are there any??
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:50
Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:53
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 14:12 Why do they have the Welsh bits the same font and colour as English?
It’s a requirement that both are treated equally, which is interpreted to mean identically. If one was in a different font or colour, it would either be more prominent or less prominent, either of which would mean the two languages no longer appeared as equals.
I'm pretty sure it would be possible to keep them both prominent with a slightly different font or colour, I would have thought it would make the signs easier to read for both English speakers who can't read Welsh and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
Scotland is now including Gaelic on road signs, in a distinct colour, so there is an example of how it could be done. Whether this can be sold to Welsh language campaigners is another matter.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:52
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:50 ...and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
Are there any??
Only those who can't read at all in any language, or possibly some preschool children in non-English speaking households (NB may include languages other than Welsh in this category).
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by ajuk »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:52
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:50 ...and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
Are there any??
Possibly, there's likely more Polish people in Wales who struggle to read English than Welsh people.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 22:50
Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 17:53
ajuk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 14:12 Why do they have the Welsh bits the same font and colour as English?
It’s a requirement that both are treated equally, which is interpreted to mean identically. If one was in a different font or colour, it would either be more prominent or less prominent, either of which would mean the two languages no longer appeared as equals.
I'm pretty sure it would be possible to keep them both prominent with a slightly different font or colour, I would have thought it would make the signs easier to read for both English speakers who can't read Welsh and all those Welsh people who can't read English.
It would be possible to make them both prominent, but they would still be different, and as I say, the interpretation of the law in Wales always seems to have been that equal treatment means identical treatment. If you put one in yellow and the other in white, you are not treating them the same way.

I’m not saying that is a useful or proportionate measure; I think personally that some distinction probably would make the signs easier to read. But those are the rules.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

But again, if one always appears above the other, which is the now the Wales-wide standard, they're not being treated equally anyway. If that's being pedantic, then it's no less pedantic than interpreting having the text in different colours as not being treated equally.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Gareth wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:43 But again, if one always appears above the other, which is the now the Wales-wide standard, they're not being treated equally anyway. If that's being pedantic, then it's no less pedantic than interpreting having the text in different colours as not being treated equally.
Consistency of sign design is paramount, which is why they've (finally) settled on Welsh first. This is not affording special privilege to language, it's ensuring that every sign is the same no matter where you are - there's nothing more irritating than the languages leaping around on subsequent signs on the same road.

I personally think colour differentiation would be much better and I don't think, as Chris says, it would really befoul the language parity requirements - railway signage already does it and I've not seen Meibion Glyndŵr set fire to Gorsaf Casnewydd yet :D
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:54
Gareth wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:43 But again, if one always appears above the other, which is the now the Wales-wide standard, they're not being treated equally anyway. If that's being pedantic, then it's no less pedantic than interpreting having the text in different colours as not being treated equally.
Consistency of sign design is paramount, which is why they've (finally) settled on Welsh first. This is not affording special privilege to language, it's ensuring that every sign is the same no matter where you are - there's nothing more irritating than the languages leaping around on subsequent signs on the same road.

I personally think colour differentiation would be much better and I don't think, as Chris says, it would really befoul the language parity requirements - railway signage already does it and I've not seen Meibion Glyndŵr set fire to Gorsaf Casnewydd yet :D
If you have a different colour then one language will always have a shorter reading distance. Its obviously not a major issue with Gaelic in Scotland (how many speakers are they in the central belt and borders?) but is likely to be in Wales - either by making it less safe or making the Welsh less readable.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Bomag wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 13:09
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:54
Gareth wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:43 But again, if one always appears above the other, which is the now the Wales-wide standard, they're not being treated equally anyway. If that's being pedantic, then it's no less pedantic than interpreting having the text in different colours as not being treated equally.
Consistency of sign design is paramount, which is why they've (finally) settled on Welsh first. This is not affording special privilege to language, it's ensuring that every sign is the same no matter where you are - there's nothing more irritating than the languages leaping around on subsequent signs on the same road.

I personally think colour differentiation would be much better and I don't think, as Chris says, it would really befoul the language parity requirements - railway signage already does it and I've not seen Meibion Glyndŵr set fire to Gorsaf Casnewydd yet :D
If you have a different colour then one language will always have a shorter reading distance. Its obviously not a major issue with Gaelic in Scotland (how many speakers are they in the central belt and borders?) but is likely to be in Wales - either by making it less safe or making the Welsh less readable.
This is where it's traditional to point out that there are more Gaelic speakers in Glasgow than in Stornoway - but since Glasgow is huge, it's still a tiny fraction of the population there, and it's doubtful that many of them speak it nearly all the time, as would be possible in the Hebrides (where I would think that most of them would have come from originally).
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 13:21
Bomag wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 13:09
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 09:54
Consistency of sign design is paramount, which is why they've (finally) settled on Welsh first. This is not affording special privilege to language, it's ensuring that every sign is the same no matter where you are - there's nothing more irritating than the languages leaping around on subsequent signs on the same road.

I personally think colour differentiation would be much better and I don't think, as Chris says, it would really befoul the language parity requirements - railway signage already does it and I've not seen Meibion Glyndŵr set fire to Gorsaf Casnewydd yet :D
If you have a different colour then one language will always have a shorter reading distance. Its obviously not a major issue with Gaelic in Scotland (how many speakers are they in the central belt and borders?) but is likely to be in Wales - either by making it less safe or making the Welsh less readable.
This is where it's traditional to point out that there are more Gaelic speakers in Glasgow than in Stornoway - but since Glasgow is huge, it's still a tiny fraction of the population there, and it's doubtful that many of them speak it nearly all the time, as would be possible in the Hebrides (where I would think that most of them would have come from originally).
It's also worth pointing out that having slabs of text that are identical requires you to parse the information twice. This is where Welsh inconsistency causes problems - you've just eaten into your 2 seconds reading time at 70 mph to work out "moch daear" is "badgers" because it isn't always at the top of the sign even in North Wales. At least if Welsh was in a distinctive colour you could ignore that part of the sign immediately. This is exactly why the Scottish system is designed the way it is.

In fact, it's why most bilingual sign systems use distinction - it's practical reality that you do not want people to be distracted by languages that are irrelevant to them. I'm sure the high and mighty English exceptionalism response is "abolish minority languages" but in the real world...
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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In fact if the two languages were in different colours, which one was first could revert to a local option as it would be obvious which was which; it would also have the side benefit of eliminating the confusion that can happen when a place has two distinct and unrelated names, such as Swansea/Abertawe, Presteigne/Llanandras, Barmouth/Abermaw (or Y Bermo) and so on - is this a single place, or two separate towns?

Most of the population of Wales is Anglophone, some of it rather defiantly so in the face of what the locals see as pushing the Welsh language where it's of no practical use to them. These are not English "incomers", these are people who are proudly Welsh, and express themselves in a distinctively Welsh way even in the English language. In certain areas you will find English-only signs which should doubtless have been replaced years ago hanging on until they wear out, and I'm not referring to pre-Worboys signs, though a small number of those linger on.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 13:49 In fact if the two languages were in different colours, which one was first could revert to a local option as it would be obvious which was which; it would also have the side benefit of eliminating the confusion that can happen when a place has two distinct and unrelated names, such as Swansea/Abertawe, Presteigne/Llanandras, Barmouth/Abermaw (or Y Bermo) and so on - is this a single place, or two separate towns?
I think there's still value in the consistency of always having one above and the other below. If that's Welsh top, English bottom, so be it. Hardly anyone cares one way or the other. Likewise with using an alternative colour for one of the languages. Cyprus can manage it but Wales can't? The sort of people who get upset about such things largely like being upset and will stay upset no matter what you do.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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A few notes from one of the few Welsh speaking SABRE members

Question 1: Why is the Welsh language text the same size/colour as English when Gaelic text isn't?

Answer: Welsh language signage pre-dates Scottish Gaelic signage by a good 15-20 years, and was introduced in the 1970s. At that time I assume it was seen as the cheapest and quickest option to have both languages use the same typeface. At the time, the main issue was that not only were Welsh place names like Abertawe and Yr Wyddgrug left off signs, but terrible anglicisations such as "Dolgelley" and "Aberdovey" were widely used, which made our roadsigns sound like a bloke from Dudley after eight pints of Banks' bitter.

Question 2: Why does the order of the languages change randomly?

As mentioned, back when road signage was made bilingual the various county councils and trunk roads agencies (North + Mid Wales TRA and South Wales TRA) generally decided for themselves, and this idea of the "English" parts of Wales having English first and the "Welsh" parts of Wales having Welsh first, and that both areas would sign destinations in England as English only. About 10 years ago the Welsh Government decided to standardise on Welsh first for signage, and to sign English detonations in Welsh if there was a Welsh name for them, examples include Croesoswallt Oswestry, Yr Amwythig/Shrewsbury and Caer/Chester. This hasn't really caused any uproar or backlash as signs take a while to be replaced and as we all know on SABRE the idea of actually checking the updated regulations for road signs before replacing them is an alien concept

Question 3: Why do we need Welsh signs when everyone speaks English?

This is always a tricky one to explain to monoglot English speakers. There's the obvious reasons of legality, however there's also a deep cultural reason. In short, road signs are government communications just like council tax bills or NHS forms, and as a Welsh speaker I expect my government to speak my language. Also, given the active oppression of the language by successive British governments there's no appetite to give a modfedd, as the government will then take a milltir.

Also, there's a deep emotional aspect to it. The best way to describe it in SABRE terms is to remind everyone the deep, soul crushing pain and apoplectic rage that appeared on this board when the number B38 turned up on signs in Birmingham, only for the "solution" to be to renumber it B384 which made slightly less sense. Just thing about that the next time you decide that its somehow a waste of time to signpost Dinbych as well as Denbigh.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Bomag »

rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 15:44 A few notes from one of the few Welsh speaking SABRE members

Question 1: Why is the Welsh language text the same size/colour as English when Gaelic text isn't?

Answer: Welsh language signage pre-dates Scottish Gaelic signage by a good 15-20 years, and was introduced in the 1970s. At that time I assume it was seen as the cheapest and quickest option to have both languages use the same typeface. At the time, the main issue was that not only were Welsh place names like Abertawe and Yr Wyddgrug left off signs, but terrible anglicisations such as "Dolgelley" and "Aberdovey" were widely used, which made our roadsigns sound like a bloke from Dudley after eight pints of Banks' bitter.

Question 2: Why does the order of the languages change randomly?

As mentioned, back when road signage was made bilingual the various county councils and trunk roads agencies (North + Mid Wales TRA and South Wales TRA) generally decided for themselves, and this idea of the "English" parts of Wales having English first and the "Welsh" parts of Wales having Welsh first, and that both areas would sign destinations in England as English only. About 10 years ago the Welsh Government decided to standardise on Welsh first for signage, and to sign English detonations in Welsh if there was a Welsh name for them, examples include Croesoswallt Oswestry, Yr Amwythig/Shrewsbury and Caer/Chester. This hasn't really caused any uproar or backlash as signs take a while to be replaced and as we all know on SABRE the idea of actually checking the updated regulations for road signs before replacing them is an alien concept

Question 3: Why do we need Welsh signs when everyone speaks English?

This is always a tricky one to explain to monoglot English speakers. There's the obvious reasons of legality, however there's also a deep cultural reason. In short, road signs are government communications just like council tax bills or NHS forms, and as a Welsh speaker I expect my government to speak my language. Also, given the active oppression of the language by successive British governments there's no appetite to give a modfedd, as the government will then take a milltir.

Also, there's a deep emotional aspect to it. The best way to describe it in SABRE terms is to remind everyone the deep, soul crushing pain and apoplectic rage that appeared on this board when the number B38 turned up on signs in Birmingham, only for the "solution" to be to renumber it B384 which made slightly less sense. Just thing about that the next time you decide that its somehow a waste of time to signpost Dinbych as well as Denbigh.
The requirements for Gaelic text, apart from a few boundary sign, is for place names only. The Gaelic colour combinations have a reduced colour contrast and are therefore less readable by about 20% e.g. a sign that can be read at 200m for the english text will be readable from 160-170m (depending on the person) for Gaelic. Assuming a compliant 'x' height and being within the recommanded items of information, this does not matter given safety critical and way finding information is more prominent (it does make a difference on overloaded signs). The welsh legislation (from the very poor 1985 Act onwards) requires the whole message to be displayed in Welsh. Also unlike Gealic where destinations are paired the whole sign in Welsh should be followed by the whole sign in English. Whatever the politics on order, both parts of the sign needs to be readable from the same distance, which is why the same colour combination is used.

In terms of the use of Welsh there is no road safety benefit in bilingual signs given the very low number of mono-glot welsh drivers. The last research I saw (10+years) was that 90% of fully bilingual readers can read the English version quicker than the Welsh - it was not clear if this was due to the nature of the language or the level of the ability to read Welsh. Unless the number items of information are reduced (as recommended by TSM) then having fully bilingual signs slows comprehension for mono-glot english readers sufficiently (time to skip to the start of the english) to counteract the benefit from the very limited number of drivers who don't read english. It's therefore a political issue that the WAG are happy to accept may lead to increased road safety risk, but given the nature and design standard of most welsh roads there are bigger safety issues. The only thing which I think should be reconsidered is dual language use for places in England, I read that one village near the border wanted to legally change their welsh name during COVID to ffyc Drakeford as they weren't allowed to use the main road as it was in Wales for a couple of 100 yards (may be an urban myth)
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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The only thing which I think should be reconsidered is dual language use for places in England, I read that one village near the border wanted to legally change their welsh name during COVID to ffyc Drakeford as they weren't allowed to use the main road as it was in Wales for a couple of 100 yards (may be an urban myth)
That's total nonsense and never happened.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:38
The only thing which I think should be reconsidered is dual language use for places in England, I read that one village near the border wanted to legally change their welsh name during COVID to ffyc Drakeford as they weren't allowed to use the main road as it was in Wales for a couple of 100 yards (may be an urban myth)
That's total nonsense and never happened.
You must have been asleep when Mark Drakeford mounted a full scale invasion of Shropshire and stormed several towns to keep the English out during the worst phases of the pandemic :wink:
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:55
rhyds wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 19:38
The only thing which I think should be reconsidered is dual language use for places in England, I read that one village near the border wanted to legally change their welsh name during COVID to ffyc Drakeford as they weren't allowed to use the main road as it was in Wales for a couple of 100 yards (may be an urban myth)
That's total nonsense and never happened.
You must have been asleep when Mark Drakeford mounted a full scale invasion of Shropshire and stormed several towns to keep the English out during the worst phases of the pandemic :wink:
Nah, that's happening in two years to provide a wholly in-Wales North-South rail link, as annexing Shropshire and Herefordshire actually works out cheaper than rebuilding the Aberystwyth-Caerfyrddin railway line. Welsh Govt expects the locals to rise up once they realise they'll get free prescriptions, free hospital parking and won't be led by a government made up of the kind of folks who play the arrogant officer class in episodes of "Sharpe" and "Hornblower"
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