Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Having a cuppa
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Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Having a cuppa »

As you may already know, road signage in England is in English (who could have thought), signs in Wales are in both Welsh and English, signs in Scottish are always in English, with some Gaelic appearing, and signs in Northern Ireland are only in English. Welsh is mandated to appear on almost all signs, alongside English, while Scottish Gaelic is only used for locations.

Bilingual signs in both Scotland and Wales use the same Transport typeface, unlike the Republic of Ireland where an italicized version is used. However, Scottish bilingual signs use yellow for Gaelic on green signs and green text on white signs to differentiate between English.

Since Welsh signage doesn't differentiate between English and Welsh clearly, it begs the question if Welsh signs should be redesigned.

I personally think Welsh text should have have a heavier weight than English on signs. Please also excuse me if I made an error with the terminology, as I'm not a typographer. I am also quite fond of the Scottish approach, as it is simplistic and easily readable, especially compared to the Irish signage which has always felt cluttered.

Either ways, let me know what you think.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

A reminder that the majority language in Wales is English. Whatever you do, giving Welsh a heavier weight of font would be nonsense.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Having a cuppa »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 07:52 A reminder that the majority language in Wales is English. Whatever you do, giving Welsh a heavier weight of font would be nonsense.
I don't mean a drastic difference of weight, I'm talking about the difference between semibold and medium transport. If it was the opposite way around, with English being given priority, the Welsh organization who goes around placing stickers on English only signs would get rather riled up, which is why I said Welsh should be the language to be more heavily weighted, to avoid a debate. Alternatively, Welsh road signs could adopt the Scottish practice of changing the colour of the text, while retaining the same typeface variant. While I don't think Welsh will ever become mainstream in certain aspects of life, such as business, it is still an important part of the Welsh culture.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

Having a cuppa wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 08:04
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 07:52 A reminder that the majority language in Wales is English. Whatever you do, giving Welsh a heavier weight of font would be nonsense.
I don't mean a drastic difference of weight, I'm talking about the difference between semibold and medium transport. If it was the opposite way around, with English being given priority, the Welsh organization who goes around placing stickers on English only signs would get rather riled up, which is why I said Welsh should be the language to be more heavily weighted, to avoid a debate. Alternatively, Welsh road signs could adopt the Scottish practice of changing the colour of the text, while retaining the same typeface variant. While I don't think Welsh will ever become mainstream in certain aspects of life, such as business, it is still an important part of the Welsh culture.
I wouldn't say that we've done this to death, but it has been discussed on a number of occasions. Putting Welsh in a different colour, as the Scots do with Gaelic, would be argued as denying "equality of esteem" for the language, so it can't be done. I don't think a different font (as in Ireland) would go down well either. So we're stuck with same font, same colour, probably for ever.

Now, when Welsh was made mandatory on road signs, local councils could decide whether they were English-priority, in which case English would be above Welsh on their signs, or Welsh-priority, mutatis mutandis. This seemed to keep most people happy, but a few years ago we were all told that it was "confusing", and Welsh-priority would apply *everywhere*, even in those areas where the language is barely spoken. Quite who was supposed to be confused, or what the issues were that arose from said confusion, was not made clear, it certainly never confused me on my regular visits to Wales. It seems to have been an executive decision handed down on high from Cardiff Bay.

And of course, please note that this only applies to public road signage. Private roads can be signed as the owner pleases, as of course can commercial premises, very often this is English-only, and with, as I said, English being the majority language, that is probably sensible. The issue of Welsh signage is, of course, highly political. Finding a way through that mire is more difficult that you could ever imagine.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by the cheesecake man »

Having a cuppa wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 08:04 Alternatively, Welsh road signs could adopt the Scottish practice of changing the colour of the text, while retaining the same typeface variant.
Is it really an issue? I can't say I've ever had any trouble spotting which is the English text and which is the Welsh text.
Also there's plenty of evidence on here that introducing different font for English and Welsh would just lead to things being written in the wrong font...
While I don't think Welsh will ever become mainstream in certain aspects of life, such as business, it is still an important part of the Welsh culture.
Ditto. For example I've never been in a shop or on a train in Wales and had to ask staff to speak English rather than Welsh.
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 07:52 A reminder that the majority language in Wales is English. Whatever you do, giving Welsh a heavier weight of font would be nonsense.
Nonsense indeed but that's unlikely to stop the Welsh nationalists. It's nonsense to insist that what residents of North Wales really want from their offshoot of the English rail network is services to Cardiff, which have to run via Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford. :stir:
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

Just have the Welsh a different colour, like in Scottish Gaelic areas.

That this would violate "equality of esteem" (whatever that is) is for the birds. Welsh is always above English on new signs, so what's good for the goose...
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Ritchie333 »

I've always had this paranoia that if I ever went to Pwllheli or Abersoch shopping, the locals wouldn't be able to understand me. And I can never remember how to pronounce Porthmadog (specifically, is the "th" in the middle like English or just "t" per the anglicised Portmadoc?)
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by vlad »

Ritchie333 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 19:21 And I can never remember how to pronounce Porthmadog (specifically, is the "th" in the middle like English or just "t" per the anglicised Portmadoc?)
It's spelt as written - with the sound in the middle the same as the "th" in the English word "thin".

Having said that, given the official name of the town was originally Port Madoc (also pronounced as written) you do get plenty of English people who pronounce it as "t" not "th". Incidentally, Port Madoc isn't an anglicism but what the town's founder Mr Madocks called his settlement. The present spelling was adopted to make the town sound more Welsh - but it's no more a Welsh name than Wrecsam is. :wink:
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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If you were starting from scratch the colour differentiation would pass the equality tests. Scotland, Cyprus, and Greece use colour differentiation, and the Republic of Ireland looked at it to replace their current system. Which would be better for both languages.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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exiled wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 19:46 If you were starting from scratch the colour differentiation would pass the equality tests. Scotland, Cyprus, and Greece use colour differentiation, and the Republic of Ireland looked at it to replace their current system. Which would be better for both languages.
The trouble is that the debate over which language gets to keep the black/white text would be acrimonious. On usage, English is the obvious answer, but the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg would stamp their foot and say "this is Wales, Welsh should be first" and Plaid Cymru would back them up. The other parties ought to stand up for the common sense solution, but would they?
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 21:31
exiled wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 19:46 If you were starting from scratch the colour differentiation would pass the equality tests. Scotland, Cyprus, and Greece use colour differentiation, and the Republic of Ireland looked at it to replace their current system. Which would be better for both languages.
The trouble is that the debate over which language gets to keep the black/white text would be acrimonious. On usage, English is the obvious answer, but the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg would stamp their foot and say "this is Wales, Welsh should be first" and Plaid Cymru would back them up. The other parties ought to stand up for the common sense solution, but would they?
If started from scratch, Welsh first in the different colour. Again that is how Scotland, Greece, and Cyprus do it. When Wales adopted bilingual signs it was still early days, and they avoided some of the worst ways of doing it.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

Exactly, Welsh first in a different colour.

It makes sense for the English to be the same colour as in the rest of the UK for the sake of continuity. That's if we're still assuming there's a practical application to all this, as well as political.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

exiled wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 21:37
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 21:31
exiled wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 19:46 If you were starting from scratch the colour differentiation would pass the equality tests. Scotland, Cyprus, and Greece use colour differentiation, and the Republic of Ireland looked at it to replace their current system. Which would be better for both languages.
The trouble is that the debate over which language gets to keep the black/white text would be acrimonious. On usage, English is the obvious answer, but the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg would stamp their foot and say "this is Wales, Welsh should be first" and Plaid Cymru would back them up. The other parties ought to stand up for the common sense solution, but would they?
If started from scratch, Welsh first in the different colour. Again that is how Scotland, Greece, and Cyprus do it. When Wales adopted bilingual signs it was still early days, and they avoided some of the worst ways of doing it.
Sorry, I didn't quite put it strongly enough - the Cymdeithas would want Welsh to have *primacy* over English, probably reversing the solution that you give. Steering your way around that feels like a very tricky issue, and don't forget that they've already got their way on Welsh-priority signage everywhere.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Vierwielen »

Gareth wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 09:44 Exactly, Welsh first in a different colour.

It makes sense for the English to be the same colour as in the rest of the UK for the sake of continuity. That's if we're still assuming there's a practical application to all this, as well as political.
The use of having Welsh in a different colour to English restricts the use of colour within England because half the colour combinations would be reserved for Welsh (and possibily also used for Scots Gaelic). If one goes to the province of Friesland in the Netherlands, then directional signs, such as this one are monolingual, but the entry and exit signs from a town, both Dutch and Fries versions of the town's name are given, such as here.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Gareth »

I still don't see the problem. It works well enough in North West Scotland, so it could work just as well in Wales...

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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

Gareth wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 17:19 I still don't see the problem. It works well enough in North West Scotland, so it could work just as well in Wales...

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/wp-con ... 68x575.jpg
Indeed, it *could*. But getting it past the politicians, who seem to live in dread fear of the Welsh language lobby is quite another thing.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Gareth wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 17:19 I still don't see the problem. It works well enough in North West Scotland, so it could work just as well in Wales...
The main issue with a colour system is many names in Wales are the same for the Welsh and English, take Aberystwyth for example. What colour on the sign should that be? You could duplicate the name in two colours but that could be wasteful on material.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

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Nathan_A_RF wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 20:26
Gareth wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 17:19 I still don't see the problem. It works well enough in North West Scotland, so it could work just as well in Wales...
The main issue with a colour system is many names in Wales are the same for the Welsh and English, take Aberystwyth for example. What colour on the sign should that be? You could duplicate the name in two colours but that could be wasteful on material.
The Irish just use the italics, for example Port Laoise and Dun Laoghaire. You could conceivably give Welsh "only" places that treatment - although Port Talbot might pose a problem.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by Chris Bertram »

Also Crosskeys, Bow Street, and the many places in Pembrokeshire whose names owe nothing to cymric influence.
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Re: Welsh Bilingual Signage

Post by ajuk »

Why do they have the Welsh bits the same font and colour as English?
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