Most important non-trunk road?

[Steven]

And rightly so! What is the point of having separate categories of trunk and primary? Either a road is important or it isn't

They are two entirely different concepts in separate Venn diagrams.

One is about who manages and pays for the road. The other is about the recommended route between places of traffic importance.

Separate categories yes. But why separate Venn Diagrams ? Surely different categories within the same Venn diagram ?

The idea I was trying to get across is that the one item bears no relation to the other at all conceptually.

You can have primary/trunk; non-primary/principal; primary/principal and non-primary/trunk - although in practice the end one is empty.

It's also worth remembering that classification is another entirely separate section, so it's (almost) pick one from each section to describe a road:

* Management: trunk / non-trunk
* Signage: primary / non-primary
* Classification: M / Ax(M) / A / B / Class III / Unclassified
* Legal type: Special / All-purpose

(and yes, I know it's actually more complex than this, but it gets the idea across, and let's not talk about Scotland making Trunk Roads and Primary Routes take the same roads)

In the Republic of Ireland, it's actually a lot easier, as all roads fit neatly into individual boxes.

[Uncle Buck]

Sorry I was thinking the A977 from Kincardine to Kinross and the A91 from Milnathort to St. Andrews, taken as one route. I think this is quite a significant road as the link from Glasgow and points south to that section of Fife as well as an alternative direct route to Dundee.

Been a long time since I've driven this road but it was an interesting drive. Single-carriageway, sometimes through towns. The bit on the M90 seemed a little like a 'false start' but then, on reaching Kincardine, the "intensity" of the road started increasing until you found yourself on the Glasgow IRR.

If we were back in 1960 we might design a DC running from Kincardine to the Tay Bridge as a main route from Glasgow and points south to Dundee; its considerably more direct than the M80/M9/A9/A90 route, and is sometimes even the recommended route on Google Maps. But it’s completely sub-par, running through many villages en route. A pleasant drive though.

[jgharston]

The idea I was trying to get across is that the one item bears no relation to the other at all conceptually.

You can have primary/trunk; non-primary/principal; primary/principal and non-primary/trunk - although in practice the end one is empty.

It's also worth remembering that classification is another entirely separate section, so it's (almost) pick one from each section to describe a road:
* Management: trunk / non-trunk
* Signage: primary / non-primary
* Classification: M / Ax(M) / A / B / Class III / Unclassified
* Legal type: Special / All-purpose

I would describe it as being different dimensions:

|		|	Trunk	|	Non-Trunk	|
|	Primary	|		|		|
|	Non-Primary	|		|		|

But there's at least a third dimension which is difficult to show with these formatting controls.

I was trying to remember earlier, are all motorways trunk? are all motorways primary routes? Are there non-trunk motorways, non-primary motorways?

[Steven]

No, not all motorways are Trunk, for example, the M275, the M62 west of M57, and the eastern section of M65.

And technically, no motorways are part of the Primary Route network.

[jabbaboy]

Either of these for the North East I'd say.

A66 from Teesport to the A19
A690 from A1(M) to the A19
A172/A1043/A171 from the A174 to Scarborough
A1231 from the A1 to the A19

The A66 from Middlesbrough to the A19 and on to Darlington and the A66(M) is already trunk, while I agree that it would make sense for it to be extended to Teesport the reality is that the section from Middlesbrough to Teesport is already being improved with money from the Government provided to the Tees Valley Combined authority as part of the plant to establish a Freeport on the old steelworks site which is now officially called Teesworks. Its likely that the rest of the A66 into that site will be trunked.
https://www.teesworks.co.uk/
https://www.teesworks.co.uk/the-development/site-map

The A690 between the A19 and A1 is a major road and a pretty good one.

I live in Marton-In-Cleveland just 400m from the A172. Its certainly busy but its mainly a commuter road as far as the A1043. It stopped being a major route when the A19 was rerouted over the Tees Viaduct. That said it has an AADF of 22k along what is an essence a standard D2 residential road. There was a plan to build an east Middlesbrough bypass, the stub of which is there but that has now been scuppered by Redcar and Cleveland Council allowing houses to be built on the southern end of the planned route.
Stub of A172 East Middlesbrough Bypass. From the end of it the route would have followed Ormesby Beck running alongside the railway line to the roundabout at the junction of the A1043 and A171
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.56757 ... 8192?hl=en

A172 in Marton
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.53068 ... 8192?hl=en

New housing blocking East Middlesbrough bypass route.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.53312 ... 6656?hl=en

This will of course make the traffic problems on the A172 and A171 even worse. That said this is the first time since the 1970's that the prospects for Teesside have looked so promising so we will live with it.

Interesting that never knew about the Eastern Middlesbrough Bypass. Always knew about the Gypsy Lane connection though. Funny went along there the other day and mentioned it aswell. Dixon Bank soon is really going to be a problem soon even more so than it is already and it's one of those places where there really isn't a fix without going through a golf course or demolishing houses and it's a place that actually deserves a bypass with 22k vehicles going through a residential area.

Really highlights why we need trunk roads tbh as more than likely if one of the roads around there was trunk those houses wouldn't have been built and no doubt the bypass or some sort would've been built 20 year ago tbh.

[KeithW]

Interesting that never knew about the Eastern Middlesbrough Bypass. Always knew about the Gypsy Lane connection though. Funny went along there the other day and mentioned it aswell. Dixon Bank soon is really going to be a problem soon even more so than it is already and it's one of those places where there really isn't a fix without going through a golf course or demolishing houses and it's a place that actually deserves a bypass with 22k vehicles going through a residential area.

Really highlights why we need trunk roads tbh as more than likely if one of the roads around there was trunk those houses wouldn't have been built and no doubt the bypass or some sort would've been built 20 year ago tbh.

Dixons Bank has been a problem for at least 30 years, it was already getting bad in 1980 when I went to work down south. This is what it looked like in 1965. Marton was still a medium sized village in the North Riding of Yorkshire then.
https://www.francisfrith.com/marton/mar ... 65_m132033

[Scratchwood]

Also various radials in London like the A40. The A10 and A127 aren't trunk in or out of London. The A130 is worth a mention.

Or indeed the A13 (other than the small section between the M25 and Tilbury)

The A41 always struck me as a decent and fairly important road between the M25 and Aylesbury, but was detrunked 20 years ago

Yes, there's a real proliferation of non-trunk grade separated roads in that part of the country.

When the LTC opens the non-trunk A13 and A130 will form a de facto outer bypass of the M25, which will be a bit weird given the local authority could insert development roundabouts, bus lanes or punitive speed limits. Essex tend to be one of the more rational CCs when it comes to roads but a nationally important route shouldn't rely on LA goodwill.

The RIS2 doc mentioned trunking "the A13/A1014 from the end of the trunked A13 through to the recently-opened London Gateway Port", though I've heard nothing since. Maybe there is some small chance that they'll actually extend along the A13 and A130 when the LTC opens.

Whereas the, to me, relatively unimportant A21 remains a trunk road between the M25 and Hastings...

[KeithW]

Whereas the, to me, relatively unimportant A21 remains a trunk road between the M25 and Hastings...

Well it is one of the main arterial roads from London to the south coast, serving Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Pembury, Lamberhurst and Robertsbridge along the way. The only viable alternative is the M23 to Brighton and the A27 and that is farther and takes longer.

I suspect the main factor in it remaining trunk is that the standard of the coastal routes between Hampshire, East Sussex and Kent is poor and they are very congested, especially in summer. The South Coast between Portsmouth and Dover is very badly served by both road and rail with most rail journeys requiring a change of trains in London while the fastest road route from Dover to Portsmouth is via the M20,M25 and A3/A3(M).

When I lived in Kent I once made the mistake of using the A259/A27 from Folkestone to Portsmouth and it was a very tedious experience taking well over 3 hours to travel just 120 miles. To be fair there is some spectacular scenery along the way. Birling Gap and Beachy Head being notable.

[wrinkly]

If I remember correctly the A21 was a relatively late addition to the trunk road network, certainly in the last 50 years, possibly a good deal less.

[Scratchwood]

Whereas the, to me, relatively unimportant A21 remains a trunk road between the M25 and Hastings...

Well it is one of the main arterial roads from London to the south coast, serving Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Pembury, Lamberhurst and Robertsbridge along the way. The only viable alternative is the M23 to Brighton and the A27 and that is farther and takes longer.

I suspect the main factor in it remaining trunk is that the standard of the coastal routes between Hampshire, East Sussex and Kent is poor and they are very congested, especially in summer. The South Coast between Portsmouth and Dover is very badly served by both road and rail with most rail journeys requiring a change of trains in London while the fastest road route from Dover to Portsmouth is via the M20,M25 and A3/A3(M).

When I lived in Kent I once made the mistake of using the A259/A27 from Folkestone to Portsmouth and it was a very tedious experience taking well over 3 hours to travel just 120 miles. To be fair there is some spectacular scenery along the way. Birling Gap and Beachy Head being notable.

I'm not denying the need for a decent road to that area, but querying why it's trunk when the likes of the A13/A127 to Southend, the A41 to Aylesbury, the A299 to Thanet, the A10 north of Cambridge etc aren't trunk when the A21 is.

[jgharston]

No, not all motorways are Trunk, for example, the M275, the M62 west of M57, and the eastern section of M65.
And technically, no motorways are part of the Primary Route network.

So, Motorway can be seen as the same axis as Primary and non-Primary, so you could have:

|		|	Trunk	|	Non-Trunk	|
|	Motorway	|		|		|
|	Primary	|		|		|
|	Non-Primary	|		|		|

[wrinkly]

If there are any trunk, non-motorway, non-primary roads, they must be very few and very bizarre.

[Herned]

One is about who manages and pays for the road. The other is about the recommended route between places of traffic importance.

I do know that.

My point was that there is no obvious logic in having a national road agency that only manages some of the primary road network. I'm aware of the history... if a road is important enough to be primary, then it follows that it is of regional or national significance, then should be managed and funded accordingly

[ais523]

You can have primary/trunk; non-primary/principal; primary/principal and non-primary/trunk - although in practice the end one is empty.

The two-way sections of the A4510 are trunk but not primary (something that's easy to verify on the ground, because they have white signs and little Highways England stickers on the street lights).

[James1978]

Regarding the discussions about the MIddlesbrough A172/A1043/A171 route, I can never understand why the A174/A171 junction on the Parkway does not have west-facing sliproads - it would certainly make that route to Whitby and Scarborough far easier if they were there, meaning you don't have to go through Marton to reach the Eastbound A171. (And take pressure off the A172 through Marton as a result).

[KeithW]

I do know that.

My point was that there is no obvious logic in having a national road agency that only manages some of the primary road network. I'm aware of the history... if a road is important enough to be primary, then it follows that it is of regional or national significance, then should be managed and funded accordingly

A primary road is simply the recommended route between two primary destinations. In terms of standard it may be anything between single track road with passing places up a high quality dual carriageway. It may indeed be road of local or regional significance but not of national significance.

Take the A19 as an example. It runs from Doncaster via York to the A1 at Seaton Burn. The section from Thirsk to York is Primary but NOT Trunk. It is of local and regional significance. It is how you get from Sunderland or Teesside to York. It is not considered significant enough for central government or its agencies , such as Highways England, to undertake its management. The strategic route from Thirsk to Doncaster is A1/A1(M)/A1,

There many more miles of primary road than there are of trunk road. In Lincolnshire the only trunk roads are the A1,M180, M181 and that part of the A46 between Newark and Lincoln.

In the past there were many more miles of trunk road than there are today. There are historical reasons for this mainly due to previous local authority organisations. You could have significant roads such as the A19 running through small local authorities such as Thirsk which could not afford to maintain or improve them. The other side of that coin was the A1085 on Teesside which is known locally as the Trunk Road. It has never actually been trunk but between the late 1930's and the 1970's was pretty much the only dual carriage way road in Teesside. It is not even primary today having been supplanted by the A174.

[SteelCamel]

Is the M6 Toll a trunk road? According to the wiki, the Highway Authority is Midland Expressway not Highways England - though their article does say they're running the M6 Toll "technically on behalf of Highways England". If not a trunk road it must be a candidate for most important non-trunk road.

[Steven]

Is the M6 Toll a trunk road? According to the wiki, the Highway Authority is Midland Expressway not Highways England - though their article does say they're running the M6 Toll "technically on behalf of Highways England". If not a trunk road it must be a candidate for most important non-trunk road.

Yes, the M6 Toll is a Trunk Road, as it's technically the responsibility of Highways England but effectively completely sub-contracted out to Midland Expressway. It's a step further from the usual PFI contracts that have been let over the last few decades.

You can have primary/trunk; non-primary/principal; primary/principal and non-primary/trunk - although in practice the end one is empty.

The two-way sections of the A4510 are trunk but not primary (something that's easy to verify on the ground, because they have white signs and little Highways England stickers on the street lights).

I can't believe I forgot about the A4510!

And, of course, I also forgot about Highways England's small collection of Class III Trunk roads.

[Bryn666]

I think it's less you forgot about the A4510 and more you've deliberately purged it from memory.

[WHBM]

Is the M6 Toll a trunk road? According to the wiki, the Highway Authority is Midland Expressway not Highways England - though their article does say they're running the M6 Toll "technically on behalf of Highways England". If not a trunk road it must be a candidate for most important non-trunk road.

Well likewise the main routes in London, managed by TfL. Then there's the DBFO (Design Build Finance Operate) A13 within London, a further step away.

The highest AADT carriageway vehicle volume in the UK nowadays is the M25 J14-15. But it used to be (pre-M25) that the highest in the UK was one of the legs of Hyde Park Corner. Non-trunk.