Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

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Bryn666
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:31
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:12 That's why I don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway because stopping in the hard strip is monumentally dangerous.
What does the solid white lines on the edge of the tarmac here mean then? If you look where the mini is parked, it goes dashed.
That's a Dia. 1010 used to mark an access or lay-by alongside a road. It's also the same marking used at slip roads, just thinner here.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Alderpoint »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:40
Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:31
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:12 That's why I don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway because stopping in the hard strip is monumentally dangerous.
What does the solid white lines on the edge of the tarmac here mean then? If you look where the mini is parked, it goes dashed.
That's a Dia. 1010 used to mark an access or lay-by alongside a road. It's also the same marking used at slip roads, just thinner here.
I was primarily asking about the solid white lines, as you state you don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway, so what do they mean?
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by KeithW »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 19:42 I was primarily asking about the solid white lines, as you state you don't buy the logic that the painted line means edge of carriageway, so what do they mean?
They mean 'here is the edge of the road'. This road has such a line and going into the ditch can damage your car and your health.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.11895 ... 6656?hl=en

If there is no foot path you shouldnt park there. If there is parking is legal if it is safe. Parking just round a blind bend or the brow of a hill is never a good idea.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:39 They mean 'here is the edge of the road'.
I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:46
KeithW wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:39 They mean 'here is the edge of the road'.
I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by RJDG14 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 21:54
Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:46
KeithW wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:39 They mean 'here is the edge of the road'.
I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
That's more or less what I guessed.

I find it a little weird that the Republic of Ireland has no rural clearways aside from tunnels and motorways to my knowledge, while they seem somewhat more common in urban areas than here.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by KeithW »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 21:54
Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:46
KeithW wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:39 They mean 'here is the edge of the road'.
I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
Most roads are not clearways so this hardly applies to Larkins Lane which is a common or garden unclassified road with a single white edge line.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 22:47
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 21:54
Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:46

I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
Most roads are not clearways so this hardly applies to Larkins Lane which is a common or garden unclassified road with a single white edge line.
Similary on my example which is a little country lane.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by fras »

I had a look on GSV and the signs are very prominent. It's about a mile long with some overtaking lanes provided, but with 50 mph now, there won't be much of this, I would have thought, as HGVs can go this speed now. The road is completely straight, so maybe this encouraged "brisk" driving and a bad accident record followed.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

RJDG14 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 22:38
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 21:54
Alderpoint wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 20:46

I agree, but Bryn seems to be suggesting otherwise?
The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
That's more or less what I guessed.

I find it a little weird that the Republic of Ireland has no rural clearways aside from tunnels and motorways to my knowledge, while they seem somewhat more common in urban areas than here.
You can't, because the A2 is a Red Route Clearway, in TfL land. So stopping on the verge etc is prohibited. In Kent, it seems to be a bog standard clearway. The white line edge markings are specified to denote the edge of the carriageway. Surely the edge of the carriageway is the edge of the clearway - reductio ad absurdum, the A303 Wincanton bypass is a clearway. At the top of Bayford Hill, there's a layby which is physically part of the same surface (no kerbs, nothing). It's clearly legal to park in - the only division is a Diagram 1010 Edge of Carriageway line, the dashed variant. There is one reference in the traffic signs manual to clearways - regarding cats eyes.

Surely you therefore can park on the A2's hard shoulder in Kent.

This is why I take issue with saying that they have no legal meaning - it's not illegal per se to drive off the edge of the carriageway. It is illegal to stop on the carriageway of a clearway - and therefore these lines do have legal meaning.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 16:45
RJDG14 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 22:38
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 21:54

The edge of the surface is the edge of the carriageway for the purposes of clearway enforcement. Otherwise you could park on an A road with a hard shoulder like the A2, which you can't.
That's more or less what I guessed.

I find it a little weird that the Republic of Ireland has no rural clearways aside from tunnels and motorways to my knowledge, while they seem somewhat more common in urban areas than here.
You can't, because the A2 is a Red Route Clearway, in TfL land. So stopping on the verge etc is prohibited. In Kent, it seems to be a bog standard clearway. The white line edge markings are specified to denote the edge of the carriageway. Surely the edge of the carriageway is the edge of the clearway - reductio ad absurdum, the A303 Wincanton bypass is a clearway. At the top of Bayford Hill, there's a layby which is physically part of the same surface (no kerbs, nothing). It's clearly legal to park in - the only division is a Diagram 1010 Edge of Carriageway line, the dashed variant. There is one reference in the traffic signs manual to clearways - regarding cats eyes.

Surely you therefore can park on the A2's hard shoulder in Kent.

This is why I take issue with saying that they have no legal meaning - it's not illegal per se to drive off the edge of the carriageway. It is illegal to stop on the carriageway of a clearway - and therefore these lines do have legal meaning.
They have legal meaning in that it is unlawful to cross solid lines without reasonable excuse, but that has nothing to do with clearways, for which solid white lines have sod all meaning. A dashed 1010 is not a solid 1012.1 is it?

You can't stop on the Kent bit of the A2, the signs are there: https://goo.gl/maps/HDFUUKL7fMwz9eFY7 and given that trunk roads are not subject to civil parking enforcement that implies the police treat the restriction as kerbline to kerbline - or edge of carriageway to edge of carriageway. The Highways Act tells you: “carriageway” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles.

A hard shoulder is part of the right of way for the passage of vehicles, even though it is for emergency use only. You wouldn't argue a bus lane or a cycle lane isn't part of a carriageway because it is restricted road space, so why would you for a hard shoulder?
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 17:32
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 16:45
RJDG14 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 22:38

That's more or less what I guessed.

I find it a little weird that the Republic of Ireland has no rural clearways aside from tunnels and motorways to my knowledge, while they seem somewhat more common in urban areas than here.
You can't, because the A2 is a Red Route Clearway, in TfL land. So stopping on the verge etc is prohibited. In Kent, it seems to be a bog standard clearway. The white line edge markings are specified to denote the edge of the carriageway. Surely the edge of the carriageway is the edge of the clearway - reductio ad absurdum, the A303 Wincanton bypass is a clearway. At the top of Bayford Hill, there's a layby which is physically part of the same surface (no kerbs, nothing). It's clearly legal to park in - the only division is a Diagram 1010 Edge of Carriageway line, the dashed variant. There is one reference in the traffic signs manual to clearways - regarding cats eyes.

Surely you therefore can park on the A2's hard shoulder in Kent.

This is why I take issue with saying that they have no legal meaning - it's not illegal per se to drive off the edge of the carriageway. It is illegal to stop on the carriageway of a clearway - and therefore these lines do have legal meaning.
They have legal meaning in that it is unlawful to cross solid lines without reasonable excuse, but that has nothing to do with clearways, for which solid white lines have sod all meaning. A dashed 1010 is not a solid 1012.1 is it?

You can't stop on the Kent bit of the A2, the signs are there: https://goo.gl/maps/HDFUUKL7fMwz9eFY7 and given that trunk roads are not subject to civil parking enforcement that implies the police treat the restriction as kerbline to kerbline - or edge of carriageway to edge of carriageway. The Highways Act tells you: “carriageway” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles.

A hard shoulder is part of the right of way for the passage of vehicles, even though it is for emergency use only. You wouldn't argue a bus lane or a cycle lane isn't part of a carriageway because it is restricted road space, so why would you for a hard shoulder?
No no no, it's not unlawful to cross solid lines, it's unlawful to cross solid centre lines where the solid one is to your side. TSRGD 2016 page 158, section regulatory road markings - diagram 1013.1 for centre lines. Mandatory cycle lanes are 1049B, bus lanes are 1049A. Therefore, not the edge of the carriageway.
Capture4_1.JPG
Meanwhile TSRGD says of 1012.1 (pg 230)
edge of the carriageway available for through traffic other than at a road junction, an exit from a private drive onto a public
road, lay-by or emergency refuge area
.
and of 1010
edge of the carriageway at a road junction or a lay-by, or at an exit from a private drive onto a public road.

Therefore they have the exact same legal meaning, but are used in different contexts.

I'd in fact use the sign you brought up as evidence for my argument - why is it necessary if the road is a clearway, and clearways prohibit stopping on the hard shoulder, being part of the carriageway/clearway?

I'd suggest what breaks there is that the hard shoulder is not part of the carriageway, not that the signage is superfluous to requirements (after all, how many of those signs do you see on motorways?)
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 17:56
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 17:32
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 16:45
You can't, because the A2 is a Red Route Clearway, in TfL land. So stopping on the verge etc is prohibited. In Kent, it seems to be a bog standard clearway. The white line edge markings are specified to denote the edge of the carriageway. Surely the edge of the carriageway is the edge of the clearway - reductio ad absurdum, the A303 Wincanton bypass is a clearway. At the top of Bayford Hill, there's a layby which is physically part of the same surface (no kerbs, nothing). It's clearly legal to park in - the only division is a Diagram 1010 Edge of Carriageway line, the dashed variant. There is one reference in the traffic signs manual to clearways - regarding cats eyes.

Surely you therefore can park on the A2's hard shoulder in Kent.

This is why I take issue with saying that they have no legal meaning - it's not illegal per se to drive off the edge of the carriageway. It is illegal to stop on the carriageway of a clearway - and therefore these lines do have legal meaning.
You can't legally cross a

You can't stop on the Kent bit of the A2, the signs are there: https://goo.gl/maps/HDFUUKL7fMwz9eFY7 and given that trunk roads are not subject to civil parking enforcement that implies the police treat the restriction as kerbline to kerbline - or edge of carriageway to edge of carriageway. The Highways Act tells you: “carriageway” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles.

A hard shoulder is part of the right of way for the passage of vehicles, even though it is for emergency use only. You wouldn't argue a bus lane or a cycle lane isn't part of a carriageway because it is restricted road space, so why would you for a hard shoulder?
No no no, it's not unlawful to cross solid lines, it's unlawful to cross solid centre lines where the solid one is to your side. TSRGD 2016 page 158, section regulatory road markings - diagram 1013.1 for centre lines. Mandatory cycle lanes are 1049B, bus lanes are 1049A. Therefore, not the edge of the carriageway.
Capture4_1.JPG

Meanwhile TSRGD says of 1012.1 (pg 230)
edge of the carriageway available for through traffic other than at a road junction, an exit from a private drive onto a public
road, lay-by or emergency refuge area
.
and of 1010
edge of the carriageway at a road junction or a lay-by, or at an exit from a private drive onto a public road.

Therefore they have the exact same legal meaning, but are used in different contexts.

I'd in fact use the sign you brought up as evidence for my argument - why is it necessary if the road is a clearway, and clearways prohibit stopping on the hard shoulder, being part of the carriageway/clearway?

I'd suggest what breaks there is that the hard shoulder is not part of the carriageway, not that the signage is superfluous to requirements (after all, how many of those signs do you see on motorways?)
OK, if I leave 2 wheels on the paved road surface to the left hand side of a solid edge line, with 2 wheels on the grass verge, no-one would enforce that? At the very least that's unlawful obstruction of the highway, not least because that 1m hard strip is still a functioning part of the carriageway even if not intended for running vehicles down, and my presence would cause road users to have to take evasive action. It would however make an excellent test case because I don't believe anyone has ever tried to actually test the lawful extents of a clearway in court and I'd like to see clarity on it.

The 1012.1 line may be used to denote the edge of the carriageway available for through traffic - a.k.a the running lane but only a fool would take it for granted that you can therefore park behind it. The edge of the carriageway available for through traffic is NOT the edge of the carriageway full stop.

TSRGD definition of carriageway matches the Highways Act:

(a) in relation to a highway in England or Wales, or a road in Scotland, a way constituting or comprised in the highway or road being a way over which the public has a right of way for the passage of vehicles or class of vehicles, and
(b) in relation to any other road in England or Wales to which the public has access, that part of the road to which vehicles have access,
but does not include in either case any central reservation

My bold.

If in doubt, you would be well advised to treat the restriction as if it goes from one physical edge to the other. You can pull out all kinds of supposed legal and technical loopholes but you need to know exactly what the order says.

"The restriction applies to the main running carriageway, slip roads and any acceleration and deceleration splays included in the order" might be the wording of TSM, but that is merely guidance which can be overruled by engineering judgement. I've no desire to FOI Highways England to find out what legal orders apply to that hard shoulder, but the presence of a police warning suggests they have something for which they can enforce because they wouldn't bother otherwise. Equally a HETO would want to know WTF you were doing parking there, because they'd summon the full incident response for a stopped vehicle.

The A556 Development Consent Order is crystal clear, and bearing in mind I did all the traffic signs and legal order compliance for that scheme I am qualified to comment:

From the date on which the roads described in Part 2 of Schedule 3 are open for traffic, except as provided in paragraph (3), no person is to cause or permit any vehicle to wait on any part of those roads, other than a lay-by, except upon the direction of, or with the permission of, a constable or traffic officer in uniform.

My bold again. The A556 has hard shoulders on the four slip roads forming the Bucklow Hill and Mere interchanges, it doesn't say you can park on those. I therefore disagree fully that you can assume it's fine to park on an A-road hard shoulder.

You will recall that motorways were signed with "No stopping, No u-turns, in emergency use nearside verge" signs for at least 15 years until the 1975 TSRGD removed the need for them because people know what a motorway is now.

As a postscript, any highway authority managing a road with hard shoulders that is not a motorway but allows or tolerates parking on them is frankly negligent because we know the dangers hard shoulders pose to stationary vehicles.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 18:33
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 17:56
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 17:32

You can't legally cross a

You can't stop on the Kent bit of the A2, the signs are there: https://goo.gl/maps/HDFUUKL7fMwz9eFY7 and given that trunk roads are not subject to civil parking enforcement that implies the police treat the restriction as kerbline to kerbline - or edge of carriageway to edge of carriageway. The Highways Act tells you: “carriageway” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles.

A hard shoulder is part of the right of way for the passage of vehicles, even though it is for emergency use only. You wouldn't argue a bus lane or a cycle lane isn't part of a carriageway because it is restricted road space, so why would you for a hard shoulder?
No no no, it's not unlawful to cross solid lines, it's unlawful to cross solid centre lines where the solid one is to your side. TSRGD 2016 page 158, section regulatory road markings - diagram 1013.1 for centre lines. Mandatory cycle lanes are 1049B, bus lanes are 1049A. Therefore, not the edge of the carriageway.
Capture4_1.JPG

Meanwhile TSRGD says of 1012.1 (pg 230)
edge of the carriageway available for through traffic other than at a road junction, an exit from a private drive onto a public
road, lay-by or emergency refuge area
.
and of 1010
edge of the carriageway at a road junction or a lay-by, or at an exit from a private drive onto a public road.

Therefore they have the exact same legal meaning, but are used in different contexts.

I'd in fact use the sign you brought up as evidence for my argument - why is it necessary if the road is a clearway, and clearways prohibit stopping on the hard shoulder, being part of the carriageway/clearway?

I'd suggest what breaks there is that the hard shoulder is not part of the carriageway, not that the signage is superfluous to requirements (after all, how many of those signs do you see on motorways?)
OK, if I leave 2 wheels on the paved road surface to the left hand side of a solid edge line, with 2 wheels on the grass verge, no-one would enforce that? At the very least that's unlawful obstruction of the highway, not least because that 1m hard strip is still a functioning part of the carriageway even if not intended for running vehicles down, and my presence would cause road users to have to take evasive action. It would however make an excellent test case because I don't believe anyone has ever tried to actually test the lawful extents of a clearway in court and I'd like to see clarity on it.

The 1012.1 line may be used to denote the edge of the carriageway available for through traffic - a.k.a the running lane but only a fool would take it for granted that you can therefore park behind it. The edge of the carriageway available for through traffic is NOT the edge of the carriageway full stop.

TSRGD definition of carriageway matches the Highways Act:

(a) in relation to a highway in England or Wales, or a road in Scotland, a way constituting or comprised in the highway or road being a way over which the public has a right of way for the passage of vehicles or class of vehicles, and
(b) in relation to any other road in England or Wales to which the public has access, that part of the road to which vehicles have access,
but does not include in either case any central reservation

My bold.

If in doubt, you would be well advised to treat the restriction as if it goes from one physical edge to the other. You can pull out all kinds of supposed legal and technical loopholes but you need to know exactly what the order says.

"The restriction applies to the main running carriageway, slip roads and any acceleration and deceleration splays included in the order" might be the wording of TSM, but that is merely guidance which can be overruled by engineering judgement. I've no desire to FOI Highways England to find out what legal orders apply to that hard shoulder, but the presence of a police warning suggests they have something for which they can enforce because they wouldn't bother otherwise. Equally a HETO would want to know WTF you were doing parking there, because they'd summon the full incident response for a stopped vehicle.

The A556 Development Consent Order is crystal clear, and bearing in mind I did all the traffic signs and legal order compliance for that scheme I am qualified to comment:

From the date on which the roads described in Part 2 of Schedule 3 are open for traffic, except as provided in paragraph (3), no person is to cause or permit any vehicle to wait on any part of those roads, other than a lay-by, except upon the direction of, or with the permission of, a constable or traffic officer in uniform.

My bold again. The A556 has hard shoulders on the four slip roads forming the Bucklow Hill and Mere interchanges, it doesn't say you can park on those. I therefore disagree fully that you can assume it's fine to park on an A-road hard shoulder.

You will recall that motorways were signed with "No stopping, No u-turns, in emergency use nearside verge" signs for at least 15 years until the 1975 TSRGD removed the need for them because people know what a motorway is now.

As a postscript, any highway authority managing a road with hard shoulders that is not a motorway but allows or tolerates parking on them is frankly negligent because we know the dangers hard shoulders pose to stationary vehicles.
Agreed, it would make an excellent test case. Whether you were committing other offenses is neither here nor there in relation to violating of the clearway regs, though.

You bolded the wrong section - a way constituting or comprised in the highway or road being a way over which the public has a right of way for the passage of vehicles or class of vehicles. This doesn't conflict with TSRGD 2016's "edge of carriageway" marking, therefore, the tarmac beyond the marking is part of the highway over which the public does not have a right of way for the passage vehicles.

I never questioned that they are part of the road, but note e.g.
The A421 Trunk Road (M1 Junction 13 to Bedford) (24 Hour Clearway) Order 2011 wrote:“verge” means any part of a road which is not a carriageway
SI 2011 No. 486
Note further that those motorway signs you quote call the hard shoulder "the nearside verge". Ergo, not part of the carriageway.

Finally, let's take a look at the A27 - Falmer
Clearway, then we get a "no waiting at any time on verge or footway".

In the regulations, we have:
The A27 Trunk Road (Falmer) (24 Hours Clearway and Waiting Restrictions) Order 2013 wrote: "a road" means the trunk road or a slip road;
"carriageway" means a way consisting of, or comprised in, a road being a way (other than a cycle track) over which the public have a right of way for the passage of vehicles and a surface suitable for the exercise of that right;
"verge" means any part of a road which is not a carriageway;
and “lay-by” means an area of carriageway, intended for the waiting of vehicles, bounded partly by a road marking on the outer edge of that carriageway complying with diagram 1010 in Schedule 6 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002(b)

Save as provided in article 4 below, no person shall except upon the direction of, or with the permission of, a constable or traffic officer in uniform, cause or permit any vehicle to wait –
at any time on any day on any part of a road or verge other than a lay-by
Note that this regulation is in fact badly worded, for one, it makes no prohibition of "stopping", and for another, the "or verge" is completely superfluous by its own definitions! Nethertheless, it is the "clearway" order.

But you need both the legislation and the signage to enforce a restriction. You can't just plop down a clearway sign, then enforce on vehicles parked on a verge. There's a reason those additional signs are necessary. And a hard shoulder is part of the verge.

I'd put no faith in the signage accurately reflecting a particular order. Catthorpe being my go-to example (and, of course, that particular sign not being the problem per se, but the fact that identical signs are used on the other side, on the all purpose road network).
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It doesn't matter that it's illegal to cycle on the M1, under special roads legislation. That restriction isn't adequately signed, therefore it's unenforceable (there is of course case law on this with merely obscured speed limit signs!).

Equally, if you only put up clearway signs, I seriously doubt that you could enforce against people parking on the verge, even if the order prohibits doing so.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

The motorway signs were worded when hard shoulders were made of gravel, and never updated. They were never intended as permanent signs so it proves nothing at all.

Fine, if you want to argue the 3 metres on the left hand side of an A road is a verge but on a motorway it isn't, then I've really got better things to do than argue semantics over what constitutes a carriageway - if you want to park on a hard shoulder of the A2 and be killed, or cycle onto the M1 at Catthorpe and be killed out of some sense of legal superiority, then be my guest.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 19:58 The motorway signs were worded when hard shoulders were made of gravel, and never updated. They were never intended as permanent signs so it proves nothing at all.

Fine, if you want to argue the 3 metres on the left hand side of an A road is a verge but on a motorway it isn't, then I've really got better things to do than argue semantics over what constitutes a carriageway - if you want to park on a hard shoulder of the A2 and be killed, or cycle onto the M1 at Catthorpe and be killed out of some sense of legal superiority, then be my guest.
I'm just using the Catthorpe example as an example of criminally bad signage.

As for the clearway regs, I wouldn't have any qualms about stopping for a drink of water on the A27's hard shoulder on my bike, if for whatever reason I was cycling on a road like that. If it were part of the clearway, that would be illegal.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 20:29
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 19:58 The motorway signs were worded when hard shoulders were made of gravel, and never updated. They were never intended as permanent signs so it proves nothing at all.

Fine, if you want to argue the 3 metres on the left hand side of an A road is a verge but on a motorway it isn't, then I've really got better things to do than argue semantics over what constitutes a carriageway - if you want to park on a hard shoulder of the A2 and be killed, or cycle onto the M1 at Catthorpe and be killed out of some sense of legal superiority, then be my guest.
I'm just using the Catthorpe example as an example of criminally bad signage.

As for the clearway regs, I wouldn't have any qualms about stopping for a drink of water on the A27's hard shoulder on my bike, if for whatever reason I was cycling on a road like that. If it were part of the clearway, that would be illegal.
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It's probably academic because today's modern DMRB doesn't allow hard shoulders on all-purpose roads other than on single lane slip roads. But I refer you to the legal definition in recent DCOs for A roads - including the A14, and the A556 I've referenced previously:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... article-16

Clearway (to include verges, hard shoulders, slip roads and laybys)

That'll do me. A-road dual carriageway hard shoulders are covered by a clearway order.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 21:28
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 20:29
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 19:58 The motorway signs were worded when hard shoulders were made of gravel, and never updated. They were never intended as permanent signs so it proves nothing at all.

Fine, if you want to argue the 3 metres on the left hand side of an A road is a verge but on a motorway it isn't, then I've really got better things to do than argue semantics over what constitutes a carriageway - if you want to park on a hard shoulder of the A2 and be killed, or cycle onto the M1 at Catthorpe and be killed out of some sense of legal superiority, then be my guest.
I'm just using the Catthorpe example as an example of criminally bad signage.

As for the clearway regs, I wouldn't have any qualms about stopping for a drink of water on the A27's hard shoulder on my bike, if for whatever reason I was cycling on a road like that. If it were part of the clearway, that would be illegal.
Capture4_1.JPG
It's probably academic because today's modern DMRB doesn't allow hard shoulders on all-purpose roads other than on single lane slip roads. But I refer you to the legal definition in recent DCOs for A roads - including the A14, and the A556 I've referenced previously:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... article-16

Clearway (to include verges, hard shoulders, slip roads and laybys)

That'll do me. A-road dual carriageway hard shoulders are covered by a clearway order.
And the fact that they state explicity to cover hard shoulders... etc indicates that they aren't covered by default. Note that the one thing that isn't mentioned there is the carriageway.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by Bryn666 »

solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 21:57
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 21:28
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 20:29
I'm just using the Catthorpe example as an example of criminally bad signage.

As for the clearway regs, I wouldn't have any qualms about stopping for a drink of water on the A27's hard shoulder on my bike, if for whatever reason I was cycling on a road like that. If it were part of the clearway, that would be illegal.
Capture4_1.JPG
It's probably academic because today's modern DMRB doesn't allow hard shoulders on all-purpose roads other than on single lane slip roads. But I refer you to the legal definition in recent DCOs for A roads - including the A14, and the A556 I've referenced previously:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... article-16

Clearway (to include verges, hard shoulders, slip roads and laybys)

That'll do me. A-road dual carriageway hard shoulders are covered by a clearway order.
And the fact that they state explicity to cover hard shoulders... etc indicates that they aren't covered by default. Note that the one thing that isn't mentioned there is the carriageway.
Now you're nit-picking. Still, if parking on hard shoulders is something you want to fight for, by all means cause that test case to happen. The A556 DCO said the same thing but with different words. Unfortunately we don't build many major A roads to warrant this issue being questioned much, but you're going to have to find the exception that proves your argument, because there hasn't been one yet.
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Re: Why has the A466 south of Chepstow been redesignated as a red route when it was already a regular clearway?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 22:01
solocle wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 21:57
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 21:28

It's probably academic because today's modern DMRB doesn't allow hard shoulders on all-purpose roads other than on single lane slip roads. But I refer you to the legal definition in recent DCOs for A roads - including the A14, and the A556 I've referenced previously:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... article-16

Clearway (to include verges, hard shoulders, slip roads and laybys)

That'll do me. A-road dual carriageway hard shoulders are covered by a clearway order.
And the fact that they state explicity to cover hard shoulders... etc indicates that they aren't covered by default. Note that the one thing that isn't mentioned there is the carriageway.
Now you're nit-picking. Still, if parking on hard shoulders is something you want to fight for, by all means cause that test case to happen. The A556 DCO said the same thing but with different words. Unfortunately we don't build many major A roads to warrant this issue being questioned much, but you're going to have to find the exception that proves your argument, because there hasn't been one yet.
I mean, I cycled on the A27 two weeks ago, so it would just be a question of going a bit further and then stopping...
0819DA54-919B-420F-AE00-C7EDB734EC09.jpeg
(The Havant Bypass is just a bit of a different beast!).
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