A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

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Ross Spur
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A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by Ross Spur » Sun Dec 05, 2021 19:42

We are familiar with the two sections opened in 1975 and 1976 as All Purpose Roads but becoming part of M25 later, namely:

- A1178 Potters Bar Bypass (J23 Bignells Corner to J24 Potters Bar Interchange)
- A405 Rickmansworth Bypass (J17 Maple Cross to Hunton Bridge, at end of J19 spur)

There appeared to be a third - J24 Potters Bar to J25 Waltham Cross. "Commercial Motor" on 25 July 1981 reported that it had been opened by Norman Fowler, Transport Secretary, earlier that week... https://archive.commercialmotor.com/art ... -and-round and yes, it reported it as M25.

However in the next year 1982 The Gazette published the notices of opening as a special road with an opening date of 8 August 1982. Normally I would just think that the notice must have been published late, but then came across a notice correction. This was put in because there had also been an Appropriation Order for the section, a highway open for general purposes to be appropriated for the restricted purposes of a motorway, and the alternative route for non motorway users (which legally has to be included in the notice) had been incorrect. The notices are:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... /page/9676
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... /page/9677
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... ment/13441 and https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... ment/13442

I wonder why it was not opened as M25 straight away? Possibly not all the works had been completed, although CIHT have a completion date of June 1981 for the section.

Has anybody any recollections or information?
Ian

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Bryn666
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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:13

Unsubstantiated guesswork but there are two probable explanations:

1. The legal orders were written for the road and subsequently messed up meaning correction orders took a further 12 months or so to be written. Having worked in highways for long enough to know that this happens all the time it would be nothing unusual.

2. It was deemed to be an easterly extension of the A1178 at some point with motorway status applied later, but I've never seen any contemporary mapping that shows this to be the case.

You've found an interesting issue, regardless. Hopefully someone has the real deal as to what happened!
Bryn
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wrinkly
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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by wrinkly » Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:49

It might be possible to discover more by looking in the Gazette for earlier notices, such as when the orders were published in draft.

Incidentally, I expect this has been mentioned before, but my 1:50k sheet 166, edition A _*, selected roads revised 1974, shows 23-24 under construction as M16. My sheet 176, edition A_* also shows the bits of 23-24 that are within the sheet as under construction M16.

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owen b
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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by owen b » Sun Dec 05, 2021 22:17

wrinkly wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:49
It might be possible to discover more by looking in the Gazette for earlier notices, such as when the orders were published in draft.

Incidentally, I expect this has been mentioned before, but my 1:50k sheet 166, edition A _*, selected roads revised 1974, shows 23-24 under construction as M16. My sheet 176, edition A_* also shows the bits of 23-24 that are within the sheet as under construction M16.
That edition of that map is a particular favourite :) , with the A41(M) Kings Langley bypass projected, and various dual carriageways under construction including near Rickmansworth and Ware.

My 1979 copy (selected roads revised 1978) has the A1178 in all its glory, A405(T) Rickmansworth bypass, A10 Ware bypass, but the A41(M) has sunk without trace.

The 1980 edition (selectively revised 1980) still shows the A1178, but the M25 is projected from Potters Bar all the way to the edge of the map beyond Waltham Abbey.

The 1982 edition (selectively revised 1982) has the M25 open from South Mimms to the A10, still projected east of there. The Rickmansworth bypass is still the A405(T).

I mainly bought these maps to see the development of Luton's roads, but the M25 related development is a great bonus.
Owen

Ross Spur
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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by Ross Spur » Mon Dec 06, 2021 21:51

wrinkly wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:49
It might be possible to discover more by looking in the Gazette for earlier notices, such as when the orders were published in draft.
The earliest notice in the Gazette is the original Appropriation Order notice dated 28 May 1981 and oops - no dates for the Orders, they have been left at “198 ”. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... 5/data.pdf However it was usual for the initial notices for the draft orders to be left in the form "197 ", "198 ".

Bryn's explanations would be plausible:
Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:13
Unsubstantiated guesswork but there are two probable explanations:

1. The legal orders were written for the road and subsequently messed up meaning correction orders took a further 12 months or so to be written. Having worked in highways for long enough to know that this happens all the time it would be nothing unusual.

2. It was deemed to be an easterly extension of the A1178 at some point with motorway status applied later, but I've never seen any contemporary mapping that shows this to be the case.
Unusual that are no earlier Draft notices for this special road scheme, and they were only put in less than 2 months before opening. A bit late, especially if they were to have any objections.

I assume that, on the ground, everything was in place for the M25, at least to convince the Transport Secretary he was opening the right road :D .

Thanks for the input.
Ian

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wrinkly
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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by wrinkly » Tue Dec 07, 2021 00:08

Ross Spur wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 21:51
wrinkly wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 21:49
It might be possible to discover more by looking in the Gazette for earlier notices, such as when the orders were published in draft.
The earliest notice in the Gazette is the original Appropriation Order notice dated 28 May 1981 and oops - no dates for the Orders, they have been left at “198 ”. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... 5/data.pdf However it was usual for the initial notices for the draft orders to be left in the form "197 ", "198 ".
Indeed that practice continues today, because when an order is published in draft you don't know what year it will be made, and hence what year will appear in its title.

What I was wondering was whether there were any earlier notices about draft orders for the construction of the road as an all-purpose road. Usually you don't get an appropriation order unless an AP road is being incorporated into a motorway.

Could this section ever have been planned as not only AP, but non-trunk??? That would explain the absence of an order.

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Re: A third section of M25 originally opened as an All purpose Road

Post by Graham » Fri Dec 10, 2021 22:13

owen b wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 22:17
The 1980 edition (selectively revised 1980) still shows the A1178, but the M25 is projected from Potters Bar all the way to the edge of the map beyond Waltham Abbey.

The 1982 edition (selectively revised 1982) has the M25 open from South Mimms to the A10, still projected east of there. The Rickmansworth bypass is still the A405(T).
It is perhaps worth noting that the 1980 edition (of sheet 166) has the print code A/*/*, and the 1982 edition has the print code A/*/*/*, so there won't be anything in between.

There was a 1981 edition of sheet 176 (B/*) - it shows the A1178, but no indication of the J24-25 stretch (Waltham Cross junction is just about on this sheet). The next edition (B/*/*, 1984) shows the J23-24 stretch as the M25, and shows J25 (also as the M25). The Watford-Rickmansworth road is still shown as the A405, and the M25 is shown as under construction from Rickmansworth to J14 (and is shown as built from J14 to the southern edge of the map).

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