Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

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orudge
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by orudge »

JF2309 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:13 Are really short hyper local journeys going to be disproportionately affected by a lowering of a Speed Limit by 10mph over Public Safety and the Environment in the broader sense, not just emissions?
I suspect a lot of the ‘outrage’ is not necessarily from those doing these sorts of local trips that could be done by other means. The problem is that a lot of longer distance journeys, in Wales particularly, end up going through town and village centres because those roads have never been bypassed, and I think there have already been examples of wide quiet trunk or primary roads being posted that have seen arguably inappropriately low limits imposed. I imagine many people would be happy to see urban speed limits reduced if a suitable bypass is provided! (And yes, decent public transport should be an option too of course, though for the most part that’s going to be buses which would also be slowed down presumably by 20mph limits everywhere). Of course, that’s unlikely to happen these days (and if the projects in Wales that are currently in preparation but not actually started proceed, I’ll be surprised) so certain more strategic lengths of road should be able to be kept at 30 or even 40 if appropriate, and perhaps route renumbering taking place to try to take through traffic out of historic high streets and the like.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by ajuk »

So far I am seeing a blanket approach in Cardiff unlike anywhere else I've seen, obvious roads to leave out such as the Heol Isaf between Morgan's Town and Radyr Was made 20 18 months ago, I knew something was up when I saw that, every other place exempted a network of roads. Since then I'm seeing more and more limits dropped with complete indifference to road standard.
Obvious roads to exempt such as the A369 and even sections of the A470 have not been excluded, almost every 40 limit has been made 30 mostly without changes to road's design. I think the only roads left 30 will be the A48 and the A470 in the end.

The thing most baffling is that the people behind this are some of the most steadfast people that the limit should just be obeyed, and yet keep doing the thing that leads to ridiculous levels of non-compliance, it seems to be just a refusal to take account for real world human behaviour and that's what leads to mass non-compliance.
Charles Marohn said it best. "The assumption underlying the 85th percentile speed is that most drivers will operate their vehicle at speeds they perceive to be safe. Speed limits set above or below the 85th percentile speed will create unsafe conditions due to speed differential as some driver adhere strictly to the law while others drive the naturally-induced speed.This observation of human behavior has long been a source of frustration for safety advocates."
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by WHBM »

AAndy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:35 Backlash?
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... source=nba
Appears to be happening. Back to 30

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/wel ... 5bb35cfca4
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Chris Bertram »

WHBM wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 17:45
AAndy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:35 Backlash?
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... source=nba
Appears to be happening. Back to 30

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/wel ... 5bb35cfca4
One feels that this was inevitable, somehow. What seems like a spiffy idea on paper turns out to be nonsense in real life.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by WHBM »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 18:29 One feels that this was inevitable, somehow. What seems like a spiffy idea on paper turns out to be nonsense in real life.
I guess that we (some of us) here come from a certain point of view. We have spent a long time with accident figures, the way people drive intuitively, established limits and acceptance of them by drivers, driver competence, and in particular falling accident rates - and the detailed reasons behind these. We have an understanding of where 20, 30, 40 etc are relevant and appropriate within these criteria. The established standards have worked well to date. 20mph limits were specified by the DfT to be essentially self-enforcing anyway. Imposing them on a modern D3 in London, or as Waltham Forest have done, on the length of a major A-road through the borough, but just putting the one 20mph speed camera on a mile-long section which crosses marshes with no frontages and has minimal accident history, is frankly a nonsense.

Politicians appear to us, and indeed to the wider public, not to have this experience or competence, and will just go for glib alterations.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by SteveA30 »

I presume that is the A13, is it really a 20 limit?
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by WHBM »

SteveA30 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 22:05 I presume that is the A13, is it really a 20 limit?
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by LukePJ25 »

Octaviadriver wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 19:13 Abergavenny was one of the towns selected to try out the 20 mph zones before their widespread introduction and I noticed for the first time I went to the town recently its almost a blanket 20 mph everywhere, such as this street on the A4143, which used to be the former railway line and has no residential properties, a few industrial units and only the occasional pedestrian.
https://goo.gl/maps/MYUUu6BuMCmviJNB7
30 mph used to feel slow if it was quiet and at 20 mph you feel like jumping out of the car and running quicker!
I drive up this road each week and have to agree with the 20 limit it doesn't feel right at all. At least this junction feels a little safer now.
https://goo.gl/maps/gqQS46n5WjJRiWZ56
Too many people belting it back and forth in-and-out. Witnessed two collisions there last year.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Octaviadriver »

LukePJ25 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 23:06
Octaviadriver wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 19:13 Abergavenny was one of the towns selected to try out the 20 mph zones before their widespread introduction and I noticed for the first time I went to the town recently its almost a blanket 20 mph everywhere, such as this street on the A4143, which used to be the former railway line and has no residential properties, a few industrial units and only the occasional pedestrian.between the A40 and the A4143https://goo.gl/maps/MYUUu6BuMCmviJNB7
30 mph used to feel slow if it was quiet and at 20 mph you feel like jumping out of the car and running quicker!
I drive up this road each week and have to agree with the 20 limit it doesn't feel right at all. At least this junction feels a little safer now.
https://goo.gl/maps/gqQS46n5WjJRiWZ56
Too many people belting it back and forth in-and-out. Witnessed two collisions there last year.
The problem at that junction is drivers from the A40 heading to the A465 are cutting the corner and are desperate to get in front of anyone following the signed route around the roundabout. I don't know why they bother as you'll be able to overtake any slower traffic as soon as you hit the A465, which is D2. Taking that short cut eastbound gives you a right turn at the junction you've mentioned, but westbound gives you a left turn on the A40, which isn't so risky.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by ajuk »

I was assuming this would allow for far more exceptions.
This is actually a lot worse than I thought, I fear some roads may be cut from 40 to 20 without changes to the road's design or engineering and some roads that formally had 40 limits already look like they may have been included.

The main road through Rogiet had its speed limit cut despite there being 97% non-compliance with the existing 30 limit, I think I posted about this before, this was also the case with another part of the B4245 the Caldicot Bypass which I think was a road designed for a 40mph limit and has not been altered and that is to get it's 30-limit. However, I asked Monmouthshire council if the road through Rogiet is to also be made exempt as it has 99.2% non-compliance and average speed of 32mph and an 85th percentile speed of 39mph!

The new guidelines for exceptions to default 20 limits contain no provision for taking into account average speeds of levels of compliance in the setting of speed limits.
According to Monmouthshire council "changing motorists [sic] behaviour/mindsets will take some time, however, the expectation is that once the legislation is enacted in Sept 23, the changes will become the norm rather than the exception." Apparently taking into account traffic speeds was only in the guidelines because no one had previously considered not to. That's how you end up with 99% non-compliance. This really is going back to before 1930 when the assumption was you can just set a speed limit. The old 20-limit was scrapped because it was felt that "The existing speed limit was so universally disobeyed that its maintenance brought the law into contempt.

I then sort to see if this is true and submitted a FOI request to the Welsh government to provide evidence that taking quite literally no account of traffic speeds in the setting of speed limits was conducive for safety and they said: "We do not hold this information".

Also despite the rules to allow exceptions, some councils have ignored even that. Cardiff has included roads that I'm pretty sure are allowed to be made exceptions such as Heol Isaf between Morganstown and Radyr and Lloyd George Avenue which was built to bypass Bute Road.

It's just a total shambles and it's instigated by people who claim to want to make speeding less socially acceptable.
That's the same logic as Erdoğan's method of trying to reduce inflation in Turkey by cutting interest rate. :roll:
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by SteveA30 »

It's a farce but, it will spread throughout Wales and England over the next few years. Oxford and Bristol are two areas with a similar attitude. Set by those who worked their way up gradually to positions of influence. It's a logical progression from FoE, Greenpeace and other pressure group campaigns in the 60's 70's and 80's, to moving into local Gov to instigate their agenda. Recycling, vegan/vegetarianism/solar heating/windfarms are other examples of their influence being felt. Not a criticism, just an observation. These things don't just come randomly out of thin air, they are planned over years and then implemented.

The revolution did happen but, no-one noticed it in its subtlety.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Owain »

ajuk wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 00:35 It's just a total shambles and it's instigated by people who claim to want to make speeding less socially acceptable.
That's the same logic as Erdoğan's method of trying to reduce inflation in Turkey by cutting interest rate. :roll:
A better comparison might be Italian speed limits, some of which are set so absurdly low that literally everybody ignores them, even when there is a Carabinieri patrol sitting at the side of the road.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by ajuk »

SteveA30 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 11:15 It's a farce but, it will spread throughout Wales and England over the next few years. Oxford and Bristol are two areas with a similar attitude.
TBF Bristol has a lot of exceptions however it's done with a big dollop of non-uniformity.
LukePJ25 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 23:06 I drive up this road each week and have to agree with the 20 limit it doesn't feel right at all. At least this junction feels a little safer now.
https://goo.gl/maps/gqQS46n5WjJRiWZ56
Too many people belting it back and forth in-and-out. Witnessed two collisions there last year.
I think that's the problem that it feels safer, especially if the average speed drops by such a small amount.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by AAndy »

All the councils in Wales have spent the last few months erecting at least one new pair of new signs for each road entering all hamlets, villages & towns and in 99% of places just 100m from the existing 30mph signage. each has a little planning notice tagged. It feels like a complete wast of resources and waste of our money. (new signage also has 30mph but they may just have a 3 tear off strip to reveal a 2.)
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Helvellyn »

Owain wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 21:24
ajuk wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 00:35 It's just a total shambles and it's instigated by people who claim to want to make speeding less socially acceptable.
That's the same logic as Erdoğan's method of trying to reduce inflation in Turkey by cutting interest rate. :roll:
A better comparison might be Italian speed limits, some of which are set so absurdly low that literally everybody ignores them, even when there is a Carabinieri patrol sitting at the side of the road.
What's absurdly low by Italian standards? Under 100?
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Owain »

Helvellyn wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:40
Owain wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 21:24
ajuk wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 00:35 It's just a total shambles and it's instigated by people who claim to want to make speeding less socially acceptable.
That's the same logic as Erdoğan's method of trying to reduce inflation in Turkey by cutting interest rate. :roll:
A better comparison might be Italian speed limits, some of which are set so absurdly low that literally everybody ignores them, even when there is a Carabinieri patrol sitting at the side of the road.
What's absurdly low by Italian standards? Under 100?
Italy's speed limits are often absurdly low almost anywhere other than the autostrada.

For example, you will typically get a 50km/h imposed on a straight rural S2W through a fully grade-separated junction with low traffic volumes and excellent sightlines (not just on the slips, but the main line).

Needless to say, they are scarcely enforced, and everybody ignores them.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by deadeye »

Is there a reason why 5mph increments are not used for speed limits? 25mph feels often more appropriate than 20mph and may lead to a wider compliance of any reductions.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by Berk »

Like most “problems” in this country, a dearth of ambition. Or unwillingness to consider a new approach.

In many parts of the world 40km/h speed limits are quite normal in parts of urban areas. In fact, you’re more likely to see some sort of variation. A main approach road could begin at 60km/h (down from 80/100 whatever), possibly have several hundred metres of that, then some 50km/h, down to 40 if it’s passing a shopping, or tourist area, for example.

You just struggle to find a proportionate response over here. It’s either 30, or nothing (or even 20, or nothing, as is already the case in some places, and shortly Wales too).

I think there will be complaints if efforts for active enforcement are made. Although speed limits have force of law, when they’re applied in a way which doesn’t genuinely reflect the level of risk they become less self-enforcing by common consent.
Last edited by Berk on Thu Jul 20, 2023 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

Post by fras »

deadeye wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2023 00:39 Is there a reason why 5mph increments are not used for speed limits? 25mph feels often more appropriate than 20mph and may lead to a wider compliance of any reductions.
AFAIK, the law defines specific speed restrictions, and none can be imposed outside those. At one time before WW2 it was 30 mph in urban areas and no other limits, then higher limits came into being post WW2 due to complaints about the 30 mph limits being unsuitable for some urban roads, so we got 40mph and 50 mph. Eventually we ended up with 20 through to 70, but no limit can be in less than 10 mph increments.
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