New signs for Level Crossings

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Big Nick
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New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Big Nick »

In the news this week is that the Dept for Transport are looking improve signage at level crossings. One change will be to put a modern train on the sign, as opposed to the 1964 steam train (I like the modern German one).
Another will be to simplify the signage at smaller crossings to make the process safer. This follows from several recent crashes and the rise in delivery drivers going to remote destinations.

I wonder if they've considered replacing the flashing wigwags with ordinary traffic lights?

(The most informative news item I could find on this)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... dated.html
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Bryn666 »

Shows that the Daily Fail can't do their homework and are looking for another tedious "hahaha aren't young people morons" story.

The only level crossing signs that have changed are those at user operated twin signal ones. This was in response to people misusing the gates and causing delays to trains as well as allowing livestock etc to foul lines.

The relevant DfT authorisation for these signs can be found at dft.gov.uk/trafficsignauths.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 15:19 Shows that the Daily Fail can't do their homework and are looking for another tedious "hahaha aren't young people morons" story.
Be honest here Bryn, you saw the Daily Mail bit and thought "I am not reading that". Because there's nothing in it about young people being morons.
The article does reference several studies by professional organisations over the years that show young drivers may not associate steam trains with danger. It also references 2 incidents that involved a 30+yo delivery driver and a 37yo biker. (In both cases the RAIB found that the crossing signage was unclear, and that drivers in general have little experience of private level crossings).
In 2014 a report by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) recommended that the steam train sign should be replaced because it was associated with 'slow-moving' trains.
Another report one year earlier by the Association of Directors of Environment, Economy, Planning and Transport (Adept) also warned the signs were 'not appropriate for today's society'.
That study in 2013 said: 'Images shown for old style level crossing gates and the use of steam locomotives depict historic images that may not be readily understood by younger drivers and road users.'
The RSSB also carried out surveys which found some respondents linked the sign with 'a steam train, possibly a tourist attraction', while others 'assumed it would be slow moving' - despite private crossings being used by high-speed trains such as on Kent's Southeastern lines.
It then says the DfT haven't yet made the changes and are still consulting on them. Your link to the DfT page doesn't work so I can't see what has been authorised already.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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When we were in Kent, Mrs 1040 thought the ungated crossing sign meant we were about to cross the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch railway!
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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The article clearly claims that young people might be confused by a steam train symbol, which is absolute patent nonsense. If that isn't claiming young people aren't morons what is?

Anyone with a functioning brain knows what a train looks like.

Changing a symbol that's been fine for decades is a complete waste of resources. They've made the change that was required for manual crossings as those still use the picket fence which arguably is a nonsense symbol because even when railway crossings were all manually controlled none of them resembled picket fences.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Big L »

Anyone would think that knowing what road signs mean is part of getting a driving licence.
Make poetry history.

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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Big L wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 19:31 Anyone would think that knowing what road signs mean is part of getting a driving licence.
Apart from the problematic manually operated crossings in the middle of fields aren't necessarily used by drivers of course.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by avtur »

Big Nick wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 14:47

I wonder if they've considered replacing the flashing wigwags with ordinary traffic lights?
From my experience in driver training I would very much doubt it, the flashing wigwag is far more eye catching than a single steady light, there is some science behind how the eyes respond to the wigwag style of light vs. a steady light, wigwags are very effective. Wigwags are used at critical intersections between runways and taxiways at airports.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Keiji »

So if I understand it correctly (the article and this thread are a bit confusingly worded so far), they're replacing the "picket fence" sign with the new "there's a train coming right at you" sign and leaving the steam train sign alone for now?

Well, I'm in favor of that! I'd be in favor of replacing the "steam train" sign with the same "train coming at you" sign later on, as well. I'm not sure why we need two different signs for railway crossings: in advance you really only need to know there is a railway crossing of some sort ahead - it should be pretty easy to work out if there are lights or a barrier there by looking at the crossing itself!

Also, while I doubt many people don't know what a steam train is, I would say the "steam train" sign gives me the mental image of a stationary steam train - it just doesn't look like it's moving, or if it is, not very quickly - while the new sign, with its head-on perspective, just screams "this thing is going to hit you!" exactly as it should.

I don't expect anyone's going to be replacing wigwags with regular signals any time soon. That really would be a massive step backwards. Wigwags should be, and for the most part are, reserved for absolute life-and-death situations: generally "you're going to get hit by a train" or "you're going to drive into a river". I've seen a couple of places where they're used outside ambulance and fire stations, which I really don't approve of: nearly all drivers do stop at regular reds (despite what the viral videos might suggest), and there isn't really much of a difference between getting hit by a fire truck or getting hit by a regular HGV, so I don't see how wigwags are going to save even a second for the emergency services there.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by trickstat »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 19:24 The article clearly claims that young people might be confused by a steam train symbol, which is absolute patent nonsense. If that isn't claiming young people aren't morons what is?

Anyone with a functioning brain knows what a train looks like.

Changing a symbol that's been fine for decades is a complete waste of resources. They've made the change that was required for manual crossings as those still use the picket fence which arguably is a nonsense symbol because even when railway crossings were all manually controlled none of them resembled picket fences.
I am not exactly young, but I was born the year that British Rail stopped using steam on regular services and I don't have any problem knowing that is a train. Quite a lot of young people would have watched Thomas the Tank Engine as children or been on trains of various sizes pulled by either a steam locomotive or something made to look like one.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Vierwielen »

Big L wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 19:31 Anyone would think that knowing what road signs mean is part of getting a driving licence.
One must also consider drivers who passed their driving tests in other countries. The first time that I saw the "modern" railway warnign sign in Germany, I had to do a double-take. The problem with the new sign, as shown in the Daily Mail article, is the amount of detail in the pictogram. Do we really need the gate to be included in the picture as it detracts from the main image - the train.

The article in Wikipedia shows that most European countries use "steam engines" to denote an unguarded level crossing, though Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg and Slovakia used "modern" trains.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 19:24 The article clearly claims that young people might be confused by a steam train symbol, which is absolute patent nonsense. If that isn't claiming young people aren't morons what is?

Anyone with a functioning brain knows what a train looks like.
That's you claiming that young people are morons. The research has shown that people today are more accustomed to seeing steam trains stationary or moving at low speeds. This comes from seeing them in museums or at preserved railways where they can only move at low speeds. I believe 25mph is the max speed on most preserved lines which means the average is about 15-20mph.

Ask anyone under 50 to draw a train and I bet the vast majority draw a modern streamlined version like the IC125s or Azumas in current use, or maybe an older square Class 317/320 style. Just like the ones they see or use. Modern road signage should reflect this.
The AA's point that people might be confused by the new oncoming train sign because it looks like a tram isn't that good - whether it's a train or a tram, it is still bound to be going faster than the regular steam train.

Here's the official DfT website with their consultation for you to read - https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... -crossings
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 19:24 The article clearly claims that young people might be confused by a steam train symbol, which is absolute patent nonsense. If that isn't claiming young people aren't morons what is?

Anyone with a functioning brain knows what a train looks like.

Changing a symbol that's been fine for decades is a complete waste of resources. They've made the change that was required for manual crossings as those still use the picket fence which arguably is a nonsense symbol because even when railway crossings were all manually controlled none of them resembled picket fences.
Isn't it actually a locomotive rather than a train? Get your point though, and wasn't the point it was old fashioned when it was introduced, like the box brownie as the symbol for speed camera is?
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Herned »

Big Nick wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 14:47 I wonder if they've considered replacing the flashing wigwags with ordinary traffic lights?
I believe the most important legal distinction for wigwags is that emergency vehicles have to obey them, for obvious reasons, whilst normal traffic lights can be treated as cautions.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Topic moved to Street Furniture forum
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by WHBM »

I don't think stupidity at crossings (or elsewhere) is anything to do with age. Those born well back into the era of steam locomotives have shown incompetence at crossings, leading to accidents, on multiple occasions.

More relevant is important (which it is) signage for an event which is rare, and when they are installed are rarely activated. Despite my considerable road experience and knowledge of highway engineering (and having actually met Margaret Calvert, who drew the steam locomotive sign), I have never actually used by car a user-worked level crossing with gates, which I'm sure is not unique among those of us here. I have seen a good number of them, and have always been dismayed by the excessively wordy multiple signage that seems to have been devised by successive lawyers' committees.

The accidents with unfamiliar delivery drivers going to farms etc is more I believe due to the ludicrously limited time they are allocated for each delivery, which leads to desperation elsewhere on the roads as well.

For wig-wags, I find that compliance at level crossings is pretty much spot on, but where used elsewhere some drivers just do not even register them. At my local fire station I have been overtaken more than once when stopped by them, looking at the driver as they pass not some Must Be In Front, but just a Do-Lally.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by AndyB »

The problem is the same as with the absence of cones on a motorway.

If there isn’t a physical obstruction or an obvious imminent danger, good luck with compliance.

The main problem with the existing signs is that they are not in the Highway Code and nor are they derived from Highway Code sign, but at the same time, the Stop-Look-Listen sign with supplemental signs for gate instructions is clear enough. I remain quite unconvinced by the new field gate sign, though.

Until about 20 years ago, in NI all you had at a user worked crossing was a Trespassers Prosecuted sign on the gate.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Chris Bertram »

AndyB wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:11 The problem is the same as with the absence of cones on a motorway.

If there isn’t a physical obstruction or an obvious imminent danger, good luck with compliance.

The main problem with the existing signs is that they are not in the Highway Code and nor are they derived from Highway Code sign, but at the same time, the Stop-Look-Listen sign with supplemental signs for gate instructions is clear enough. I remain quite unconvinced by the new field gate sign, though.

Until about 20 years ago, in NI all you had at a user worked crossing was a Trespassers Prosecuted sign on the gate.
You and me both. The sign seems to me to represent the wrong perspective. Not sure what I'd replace it with, however.
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Re: New signs for Level Crossings

Post by Gareth »

WHBM wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:03For wig-wags, I find that compliance at level crossings is pretty much spot on, but where used elsewhere some drivers just do not even register them. At my local fire station I have been overtaken more than once when stopped by them, looking at the driver as they pass not some Must Be In Front, but just a Do-Lally.
I don't really like level crossing style wig-wags at fire stations etc, although I think it's in the Vienna Convention and many other countries also do it.

I also don't really see the need for an amber light. Pretty much no other country (bar Ireland) has it. It seems it was added as a consequence of the Hixton level crossing disaster, although it's not clear to me how a steady amber light would register with a truck driver who appeared to be oblivious to flashing red wig-wags. I also like me a proper ding-ding bell, as seen in most other English-speaking countries and the likes of the Netherlands. Yodel alarms are far too polite.

As for the signs, I'm not at all convinced they're broken, nor need fixing.
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