Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

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usandourvan
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Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by usandourvan »

Around the world, traffic lights use the yellow (btw why don't we say orange as it looks more orange than yellow?) light to warn people that it will soon turn to red, but I remember that in Germany they also turn to yellow before green, and I think it's clever, isn't it?
Would you know other countries/cities using this?
I found one in Bristol :laugh: (sad video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-woMkK9is

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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by pjr10th »

Firstly, we call it amber, not yellow or orange (as it's neither of those colours really).

Secondly, starting amber is the standard sequence in the UK, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. In Jersey and Ireland, it goes straight from red to green. I can't find any reason for this difference though, which is the bizarre bit.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by DavidB »

pjr10th wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 22:41 Firstly, we call it amber, not yellow or orange (as it's neither of those colours really).

Secondly, starting amber is the standard sequence in the UK, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. In Jersey and Ireland, it goes straight from red to green. I can't find any reason for this difference though, which is the bizarre bit.
I was in Jersey a couple of weeks ago and while fixed traffic lights do indeed go straight from red to green I noticed that temporary ones at road works had a starting amber. Presumably these were 'off the shelf' models from mainland UK.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Much of northern Europe uses starting amber, though Belgium and the Netherlands do not (I don't know about Luxembourg). It does have the advantage (for countries where manual shift vehicles predominate) of giving a couple of seconds before green to engage gear ready to go. For somewhere like the USA where automatics are the rule rather than the exception, it's less important. And I guess it's a nice-to-have in the grand scheme of things, and you do quickly get used to it not being there when driving in e.g. France, which will be the first place that many British drivers encounter red straight to green.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Bryn666 »

There are pros and cons.

The pros include making sure everyone is ready to go on green so there is no in built delay. This creates a con though, in that you have to add in delay to cater for the signal change; and some drivers will treat it as an invitation to move off early as other drivers will treat it as an invite to run a red as there's a delay before the other flow moves. Not a pretty outcome.

Similar arguments about signal head positioning arise from this - the French system makes it harder to 'false start' as you have to watch a repeater signal if you're up front, whereas the US farside only system makes it easier to bomb through a junction without really looking, and our dual head system ends up with 48 signal heads for a single junction.

There's no 'perfect' set up, they're all based on varying trade offs and you have to pick your poison, really.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Here in Russia, the standard sequence according to GOST R 52289-2019 is "Red -> Red+Amber -> Green -> Flashing Green (optional but still common) -> Amber -> Red".
However, if the traffic light installation is not part of a coordinated network, an alternative sequence is permitted, "Red -> Green -> Flashing Green (optional) -> Amber -> Red"
The latter sequence AFAIK is common in Moscow, Perm, Yekaterinburg, and Petrozavodsk. Personally I don't like that sequence, as a traffic light changing from red straight to green is sudden, and I don't notice it as fast had I known it would change soon (countdown/red+amber).
In the Soviet Union, the sequence was actually "Red -> Amber -> Green -> Amber -> Red", that's right, it changed from red to just amber, before changing to green.
We once were driving through Achinsk, and were stopped at a red traffic light at this junction, but instead of it displaying amber with red, it displayed a lone amber before changing to green, which is pretty strange. On GSV, it actually displayed red+amber, so it must've been some kind of fault in the controller.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by usandourvan »

I think 'Red -> Red+Amber -> Green -> Flashing Green (optional but still common) -> Amber -> Red' as you @WhiteBlueRed mentioned is the most clever & safest way!
No need for Flashing green!?

'Red -> Red+Amber': makes traffic faster.
Without red, amber on its own is too confusing with the sequence 'Green -> Amber -> Red'

I'm wondering why this sequence is not an International agreement...

So far : 'Red -> Amber -> Green' in:
- UK (sure about Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales?), Guernsey and the Isle of Man
- Russia
- Germany

Straight 'Red -> Green':
- Jersey
- Ireland
- France
- Belgium
- Netherlands
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by AndyB »

Originally it was amber alone in both directions. Thus the song my dad knew “Red means stop, yellow {sic} means wait, and green means go”

Yes, all of the UK is R-R/A-G-A-R.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by WHBM »

Just for clarity (and our US readers) it's not "starting amber", it's red & amber, shown together.

The style of US signals I always liked, now I think no longer installed, was a single diagonal wire right across the junction from (wooden) poles at opposite corners, with a single 4-way head hung at the midpoint. It was completely visible from all ways and seemed so straightforward and minimalist a solution. I suspect my colleagues here will be along soon to challenge my admiration. The US also commonly uses ground glass focused lenses so there are no ghosting aspects visible from the wrong road.

Starting red/amber or not, the key thing at a junction is the Intergreen Interval, that is how many seconds between closing one stage and opening another. I believe that originally in Britain there was a single wire for all the amber bulbs, and the closing amber for one was shown together with the red/amber of the next stage. Old engineer (who I've written about before) once showed me, with his stopwatch, how to maximise green time without impinging on safety margins, different for every junction, something modern-day signal setters could do with learning again.

Contrary to some items I have seen written elsewhere, the railway, for not dissimilar signals, uses the terms Red, YELLOW and Green.
Last edited by WHBM on Tue May 31, 2022 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Most post-Soviet countries also display red+amber before green. In Belarus that's the only permitted sequence, while elsewhere, similar to Russia, it can also go from red straight to green. (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan).
In Indonesia, the opposite is true, where traffic lights most commonly change from red straight to green, but sometimes may display red+amber before changing.
Personally I believe flashing green should be abolished, as parts of Latvia had already done, because it invites drivers to speed up. Or be abolished on roads within built-up areas, and retained on higher-speed roads (as is the case in Israel).
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Chris Bertram »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 18:25 Just for clarity (and our US readers) it's not "starting amber", it's red & amber, shown together.

The style of US signals I always liked, now I think no longer installed, was a single diagonal wire right across the junction from (wooden) poles at opposite corners, with a single 4-way head hung at the midpoint. It was completely visible from all ways and seemed so straightforward and minimalist a solution. I suspect my colleagues here will be along soon to challenge my admiration. The US also commonly uses ground glass focused lenses so there are no ghosting aspects visible from the wrong road.

Starting red/amber or not, the key thing at a junction is the Intergreen Interval, that is how many seconds between closing one stage and opening another. I believe that originally in Britain there was a single wire for all the amber bulbs, and the closing amber for one was shown together with the red/amber of the next stage. Old engineer (who I've written about before) once showed me, with his stopwatch, how to maximise green time without impinging on safety margins, different for every junction, something modern-day signal setters could do with learning again.

Contrary to some items I have seen written elsewhere, the railway, for not dissimilar signals, uses the terms Red, YELLOW and Green.
The railways use the term yellow because the signal is a bright yellow and not an amber. In modern LED signals where only one aspect serves for all colours, the yellow is shown by combining the green and red LEDs. For double-yellow, a second aspect is provided, of course.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by RichardA626 »

Turkey used flashing green at one time, I'm not sure if they still do, as I don't recall seeing any there when I was recently visiting.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by WHBM »

RichardA626 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 22:13 Turkey used flashing green at one time, I'm not sure if they still do, as I don't recall seeing any there when I was recently visiting.
USA/Canada also used flashing green for a completely different purpose, to indicate a protected left turn across oncoming traffic. I haven't seen one there for some years, it seems to have been replaced by dedicated green arrows, UK-style.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by traffic-light-man »

Canada is interesting in that it has two different flashing greens in use across the country. In some provinces, they use a 'fast' flashing green which indicates that the movement is exclusive and unopposed. Generally used in full greens, it now gets used in arrows as well. A 'regular' flashing green is used to indicate a pedestrian crossing facility (sometimes sited at otherwise-priority junctions) in some provinces, which rest in flashing green until a pedestrian presses the button. I can see a huge potential for misunderstanding, particularly if you're familiar with the former, are driving where they use the latter and haven't paid attention to the flash rates, but I'm not sure that's actually something they suffer problems with.

In the USA, flashing green was seen in Massachusetts for similar reasons to the latter Canadian example, but where the 'side road' was faced with a corresponding flashing red. These signals rested in flashing until a pedestrian pressed the button, they would then all cycle to red, and then yellow would illuminate with the red to indicate an exclusive pedestrian stage. Another curiosity of these installations is that the 'side road' flashing red aspect is located in the regular green position, so the steady red uses a different aspect that's in the regular position. I believe these pedestrian signals have dwindled in numbers quite considerably in recent years, many being replaced with regular flashing yellow/flashing red combinations and dedicated pedestrian signals for the exclusive pedestrian stage.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 22:35
RichardA626 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 22:13 Turkey used flashing green at one time, I'm not sure if they still do, as I don't recall seeing any there when I was recently visiting.
USA/Canada also used flashing green for a completely different purpose, to indicate a protected left turn across oncoming traffic. I haven't seen one there for some years, it seems to have been replaced by dedicated green arrows, UK-style.
In Quebec, Canada, they still use flashing greens for protected left turns, however, I believe the green arrow still flashes in some provinces. Green arrows flash in South Africa too.
traffic-light-man wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 08:54 In the USA, flashing green was seen in Massachusetts for similar reasons to the latter Canadian example, but where the 'side road' was faced with a corresponding flashing red. These signals rested in flashing until a pedestrian pressed the button, they would then all cycle to red, and then yellow would illuminate with the red to indicate an exclusive pedestrian stage. Another curiosity of these installations is that the 'side road' flashing red aspect is located in the regular green position, so the steady red uses a different aspect that's in the regular position. I believe these pedestrian signals have dwindled in numbers quite considerably in recent years, many being replaced with regular flashing yellow/flashing red combinations and dedicated pedestrian signals for the exclusive pedestrian stage.
Here in Russia, these kinds of "half signals" are not uncommon. They operate like normal traffic lights, but the stop line is placed just before the junction, so that vehicles from the side roads can legally turn across the crossing even when the green man is showing, after giving way. https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9829511 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@60.7175885 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Gareth »

AndyB wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 18:24 Originally it was amber alone in both directions. Thus the song my dad knew “Red means stop, yellow {sic} means wait, and green means go”
I don't think that's true. Pretty sure the earliest signals (late 1920s/30s) went red, red & amber, green, green & amber, red. I think this came from what was being done in parts of the US at the time, where the amber for both directions was one phase, so when one direction saw red & amber, the other saw green & amber*. The green & amber didn't last long here but in several other European countries, it lasted well into the second half of the century.

* - edit: realised WHBM has already described this.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Gareth »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 11:17 There are pros and cons.

The pros include making sure everyone is ready to go on green so there is no in built delay. This creates a con though, in that you have to add in delay to cater for the signal change; and some drivers will treat it as an invitation to move off early as other drivers will treat it as an invite to run a red as there's a delay before the other flow moves. Not a pretty outcome.
Another thing about red & amber is that if the red aspect fails, you get a lone amber, thus a wrong indication. It's also inconsistent with filter arrows, which just come on without any equivalent indication. Minor perhaps but it irks my OCD somewhat.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Gareth »

WHBM wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 18:25 Just for clarity (and our US readers) it's not "starting amber", it's red & amber, shown together.

The style of US signals I always liked, now I think no longer installed, was a single diagonal wire right across the junction from (wooden) poles at opposite corners, with a single 4-way head hung at the midpoint. It was completely visible from all ways and seemed so straightforward and minimalist a solution. I suspect my colleagues here will be along soon to challenge my admiration.
Not really a challenge: I kinda like it too because it has a minimalist appeal to it, especially when it's hanging over an intersection in a sleeping, tree-laden New England town. That said, one signal face per direction is not really adequate and a lot of those you see with several signal heads all strung on the same wire and facing different directions can look quite ugly.

I'm actually a fan of California's signal set up. A signal on each far corner, a mast arm if the road is over a certain width and increasingly a signal at the stop line, on the right. I like Wisconsin for similar reasons, where a signal at the stop line must always be included and even a duplicate on the left is often seen on dual carriageways, very much like the UK. The MUTCD standard of a farside mast arm with a signal over each line has a nice simplicity to it but as well as no signal at the stop line, it can go awry at irregular junctions and has been designed with merely junctions that are multi-lane 90 degree intersections in mind.

Oh, and I also like the street name signs on the mast arms in North America. It wouldn't work so well here, even if we didn't have a particularly British aversion to mast arms, because roads over a certain length here tend to change their name more often than Prince did. Names for particular intersections could possibly work though, kinda like we do for roundabouts.
Last edited by Gareth on Wed Jun 01, 2022 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Gareth wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 16:18The green & amber didn't last long here but in several other European countries, it lasted well into the second half of the century.
I remember encountering it in Italy in the early seventies. But there was no red & amber, the signals went straight from red to green.
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Re: Traffic lights: what countries use yellow before green?

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 17:05
Gareth wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 16:18The green & amber didn't last long here but in several other European countries, it lasted well into the second half of the century.
I remember encountering it in Italy in the early seventies. But there was no red & amber, the signals went straight from red to green.
Likewise in South Africa
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